PDA

مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : حظّ الحياة



أبو علاء
01-05-2006, 23:32
من السّنن الّتي جرى العمل بها في برنامج المرحوم محمود كامل ألحان زمان أنّه كان بين الحين والحين يختار قطعة من قطع التّراث تكون دورا أو قصيدة أو موّالا ويقدّمها بأصوات مختلفة، وهي فكرة ممتازة بحدّ ذاتها لو أحسن استغلالها من النّاحية الفنّيّة والجماليّة إذ تكون فرصة للتّمكّن من خصائص تلك القطعة وتمييز الثّابت منها والمتغيّر فيما يخصّ القطع"نصف الملحّنة" وخوصا منها الأدوار، وقد رأينا الأستاذ لاغرانج يوظّف مثل تلك الدّراسة المقارنة المعمّقة في أطروحته الّتي نال بها شهادة الدّكتوراء ؛ إلاّ أنّ حلقات ألحان زمان المذكورة لم تكن تزيد عن تقديم تسجيلات مختلفة لنفس القطعة مع حدّ أدنى من المعلومات مثل اسم الملحّن والمؤلّف والمقام والكلمات ومن غنّى تلك القطعة...
وقد خطر لي أن أنطلق من بعض تلك الحلقات لتقديم نماذج من هذا القبيل الّذي وصفت على أمل أن لا يساعدنا وجود فريديريك ونجيب وكلّ من بإمكانه المساهمة في حوار فنّيّ مفيد في تجاوز ذلك الحدّ البدائيّ ؛ وقلت أن أبدأ بدور حظّ الحياة إلاّ أنّي سأحتاج إلى المدد من خزانة فريديريك قبل مساهماته النّقديّة الفنّيّة.
فالدّور موجود لديّ نظريّا بأصوات كلّ من عبد الحي حلمي ويوسف المنيلاوي ومحمّد نجيب ومرسي الحريري وصالح عبد الحي ؛ إلاّ أنّ التسّجيلات الثّلاثة الأولى في حالة سيّئة أو هي في أحسن الأحوال متوسّطة ومنها بعض الأقسام غير مسموعة بتاتا ؛ لذلك سأتمهّل قبل رفعها عسى فريديريك يمدّنا بنسخ جيّدة منها، وإن لم يكن فسأقدّم لكم ما لديّ على علاّته ؛ ولكن دعوني أبدأ بتقديم هذين التّسجيلين للدّور : الأوّل لصالح عبد الحي، وهو مختلف عن ذاك الّذي ورد ضمن وصلة يسبقه فيها موّال الورد مهما ذبل يفضل عبيره فيه (وقد سبق رفع تلك الوصلة ضمن موضوع الوصلة الشّرقيّة)
http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1543&postcount=10
، وهو تسجيل متأخّر عن التّسجيل المذكور لعلّه من نهاية الأربعينات أو بداية الخمسينات كأقصى حدّ ؛ أمّا التّسجيل الثّاني فهو تسجيل أحدث عهدا من حيث صيغته وأسلوبه أكثر من الحداثة الزّمنيّة وهو من مجموعة كبيرة من التّسجيلات الّتي قامت بها الإذاعة المصريّة للكثير من الأدوار بأصوات مطربي الخمسينات وبداية السّتيّنات (مثل كارم محمود ولور دكاش وعائشة حسن وبديعه صادق ومحمّد قنديل وشافية أحمد فضلا عن عبّاس البليدي) بإشراف إبراهيم شفيق وبصيغة أوركستراليّة وأسلوب يعتمد الحفظ وتكرار مادّة جاهزة بأدنى قدر ممكن من التّصرّف على غرار الأسلوب الّذي استقرّ واكتملت أركانه بحلول الكورال محلّ المطرب المنفرد مع عبد الحليم نويره.
ومرسي الحريري هو مطرب من مطربي أواسط القرن من جيل عبّاس البليدي وعبد الغني السّيّد ومحمّد قاسم ومحمّد صادق.


This is a first attempt to introduce the same piece through various interpretations with the hope that this offer an opportunty for a minimum of analysis and comparison with the view to encouraging constructive reflexion and debate on the artistic value and the esthetic aspects of the material provided in this forum.
Dawr Hadhdhi-l-hayat, in bayati mode, composed by Muhammad'uthman and interpreted by Salih 'abdi-l-hay (another version of the dawr by the same singer was uploaded in the Waslah sticky) and Mursi Al-hariri

fredlag@noos.fr
02-05-2006, 01:30
Amusing game.
Let's play and start with Si el-Sayyed himself, the n°1 recording artist of the turn of century khedivial music, al-malik al-mu3azzam,

al-Shaykh Yusuf al-Manyalawi
Gramophone 2012054/55/56 (3 sides)
matrix nb : 1718/19/20
recorded january 1909, Cairo
issued 1924, 13 years after the shaykh's death. Gramophone should never have recorded it nor issued it, which prompted legal action against the company by the heirs of Manyalawi. Lucky us they did.

Hazz el-Hayah is quite difficult to sing, the "lamma l-hawa ya 3eni, ya 3eeeeeeeeni yiigi sawa" in the madhhab is at the top of the range, which is a little hard at the beginning of the piece (compare with qarar of the piece in the rast section of "wana a3mel eh" and the wonderful descent at 10'04).
the qaflat on "gefun" (sehr el-gefun khad menni qalbi) are awesome. Also pay attention to the slight acceleration of the tempo at 10'34" and the 3afqa on "eeh", repeated, which sends the takht into raptures (10'52).
When shaykh Yusuf begins the "ya nas 3agib" section in gaharkah (is it on kerdan?) at 11'58", he must have realized he lacked time and unfortunately wraps it up too fast. This is developped by other singers, as Saleh Abd al-Hayy.

أبو علاء
02-05-2006, 12:59
شكرا فريديريك ولنا عودة للألحان والغناء ؛ ولكن دعنا نقدّم بعض البيانات عن الدّور أوّلا :

الكلمات : محمّد الدّرويش
اللّحن : عبده الحامولي (حسب قصطندي رزق وكامل الخلعي وإن كان محمود كامل نسبه إلى محمّد عثمان)
المقام : بياتي (وقد جاء عند الخلعي "حسيني دوكاه"، وهي صيغة غريبة متكرّرة في ذكر مقامات الموشّحات والأدوار عنده ؛ أمّا قسطندي رزق فقد ذكر في موضع المقام عبارة غريبة لم أفقه لها خعنى صدّر نصّ الدّور بعبارة "مذهب شرحه"، وعلى هذا الاعتبار تكون كلمة "شرحه" للدّلالة على المقام، وهنا أعترف بجهلي التّامّ بما عسى أن يكون ذلك لأنّي لم يسبق لي سماع هذا المصطلح أو قراءته)
نصّ الكلمات :
مذهب
حظّ الحياة يبقى لروحي
لمّا الهوى يجي سوا
يا قلبي طال نوحك ونوحي
واللي جرح عنده الدّوا
دور
سحر الجفون خاد منّي قلبي
وانا اعمل ايه في دي الهوى
يا ناس عجيب السّقم زاد بي
واللّي جرح عنده الدّوا

أبو علاء
02-05-2006, 15:20
في اننتظار تعاليق الإخوة ومساهماتهم، سأورد هنا بعض الخواطر دونما ترتيب منطقيّ ؛ وأولى ملاحظاتي تخصّ أداء صالح عبد الحي ؛ فهذه ليست المرّة الأولى الّتي يسعفنا الحظّ فيها بأكثر من تسجيل بصوته لنفس الدّور ؛ وما نلاحظه هنا هو ما كنّا لاحظناه عند التّعليق على قدّ ما احبّك زعلان منّك (وقد سمعناه في ثلاث تسجيلات مختلفة) وقدّك أمير الأغصان وعلى روحي أنا الجاني وأفراح وصالك، وهو أنّ صالح لا يكاد يضيف جديدا بين تسجيل وآخر حتّى وإن باعد بينهما الزّمن ؛ أقول هذا القول وأنا كما يعلم الكثير من الإخوان من المغرمين بهذا المطرب وقد عددته لسنوات طويلة القمّة الّتي لا تضاهى في غناء الدّور ؛ والآن أصبح بإمكاني استيعاب بعض المواقف المتحفّظة بل حتّى المستهجنة أحيانا فيما يخصّه ملو كان فيها غلوّ مثل وصفه "حمار الإذاعة".
وإن كنت أتصوّر ردود فعل أصدقائي الّذين دأبت على صحبتهم والاشتراك معهم في الولع بتسجيلات صالح عبد الحي وجعلها مدار جلساتنا وسهراتنا (ولا أنسى هنا صديقى حتّومه وإن لم تجمعنا بعد مثل تلك الجلسات والسّهرات:) ) فإنّي أرى من واجبي القول هنا إنّ مفهوم "لقمّة" أو "الذّروة" أو ما شابه ذلك من المفاهيم ليس مناسبا عند الحديث عن صالح عبد الحي لأنّه يخفي نظرة ساذجة إلى تاريخ الغناء الكلاسيكيّ المصريّ بدأت أتبيّن بعدها عن الواقع من خلال مشاركات فريديريك ومن خلال قراءة أطروحته مفادها الصّريح أو الضّمنيّ أنّ مسار ذلك التّاريخ كان على شكل هرميّ يقوم على حركة صاعدة وأخرى نازلة وأنّ نقطة الفصل بين الحركتين هي صالح عبد الحي.
وربّما كان الأقرب إلى الصّواب القول إنّ صالح عبد الحي كان حلقة من حلقات التّدرّج من يوسف المنيلاوي وعبد الحي حلمي وسلامه حجازي إلى عبد الحليم نويره ؛ وربّما أقصى ما يمكن قوله في تلك الحلقة أنّها حلقة متميّزة مثّلها مطرب قدير ممّا يجعلها بارزة بالقياس إلى حلقات أخرى وسيطة في ذلك المسار يمكن وسمها بأسماء مثل علي عبد الباري ومحمود البولاقي وعلي الحارث وسيّد الصّفتي من قبل ومحمود مرسي وعبّاس البليدي وكارم محمود من بعد وأنّ تلك الحلقة البارزة الوسيطة قد مثّلها مطرب قدير لامع بحقّ ؛ ولكن لا مناص من القول إنّ صالح مثّل خطوة "إلى الأمام" باتّجاه النّموذج النّويريّ ولم يكن كما قد خيّل لنا للوهلة الأولى على طرف النّقيض منه.

Hattouma
02-05-2006, 15:45
Thanks Abu Alaa for chosing this Dawr (some sort of telepathy again as i was listening to it a lot lately and sent the recording proceeded by the great Mawal el-ward mahma dibil to Nomad in his birthday !).
As for Saleh I think i get the point , but it needs a chat over the phone , i guess you are back in Roma ?

luay
02-05-2006, 15:52
Abu A'laa,
I can't contribute anything in this discussion, but your observations about Saleh's performances of the same song bring back a point I raised a long time ago in a thread we dedicated to discussing Fathiya Ahmad, when I said (or, more accurately, hypothesized) that these singers performances were rehearsed, and not that they were really improvising on the spot. You disagreed with me then (and probably still do), saying that probably Abd El Wahab was the only one whose mawwals were rehearsed. So, doesn't the fact that Saleh's performance of the same dawr, despite so many years between the performances, give an indication of rehearsed singing?

All the best,
Luay

Hattouma
02-05-2006, 16:26
rehearsed ...? or lack of imagination ?

أبو علاء
02-05-2006, 17:16
I'm afraid I have to stick to the position you mentioned Luay, because, then, we were talking of mawwals and what I'm saying here doesn't apply to 'abdil-hay mawwals. Mawwal in its very essence is supposed to be totally improvised, which is not excactly the case of the dawr that is rather a "semi-composed" piece as Frédéric would put it. Hence, the artistic value of a performance thereof could and should be assessed on the amount of innovation, inventivity the performer puts therein. Frédéric would add that belated dawr composers such as Dawud Husni, 'ibrahim Al-qabbani, let alone Zakariya 'ahmad, had already moved from such semi-composed models to fully composed ones, thus the part of invetion and addition on the part of the performer being reduced to a great extent. What we terribly miss here is the chance to listen to 'abdu Al-hamuli's performances of such XIXth century compositions like this one.

fredlag@noos.fr
02-05-2006, 19:49
I reckon public concerts of Umm Kulthum give us a pretty good idea of what was expected from a singer when interpreting a dor. Every singer must have determined pretty soon his own way of singing those classics, the safti way, the manyalawi way, the hilmi way, and so on. In average days, the rendition would be fine but wouldn't add anything to a well rehearsed path, a nahg, always repeated. In nights of utter tagalli, the path would remain a mere scheme on the ground so as not to get lost, but the singer's talent would prompt him some complete changes.
The status of 78 rpm recordings, studied by Ali Jihad Racy, then myself, is different from the live concert. The media was totally new, discs were chain-recorded with no respect of maqam consistency : the artist would record a dor rast, then higaz, then nawa athar, then bayyati and so on. No time to really let the saltana sink in. It is actually amazing how good those recordings were, considering the situation. The recordings sessions were *never* recreations of a wasla, they were always a mix of what was needed by the company and the public... So those testimonies can only give a vague idea of how those piecs were actually sung.
Saleh Abd al-Hayy, a magnificent voice, is also a great disappointment, and I totally agree in seeing in him (along with Ibrahim Shafiq the "haafiz" of the Conservatory) a missing link between Manyalawi/Hilmi/Higazi/Safti and the later Nwira generation. Indeed, there are few differences from one recording to another, and even from an era to another.
I suggest you listen to a former rendition by Manyalawi of dor / Hazz el-hayah
The document is much harder to hear than the Gramophon records : this is the Sama3 al-Muluk version of this dor, recorded 1905 by the German company Beka for the Orosdi-Back department store, under this exciting "sama3 el-muluk" label. The technical quality is very low, just slightly above the rolls.
The rendition is slightly different from the Gramophone one : the way the transitions from one sentence to another are organized in the madhhab is different, the transition between the bayyati and the rast sections in the dor is also different, and the final "ya nas 3agib" suggests another path as well: instead of hinting at gaharkah, Manyalawi hints at rast (on kerdan, I think). But the rendition is, however, not hugely different than the Gramophone one : a moment of pure invention and madness was probably impossible to achieve when you have to hold a silent alarm clock in your hand that is set to vibrate every 3 minutes to tell you to wrap it up so the engineer can prepare another record...

أبو علاء
02-05-2006, 20:32
I'm precisely reading the chapter of your thesis dealing with the 78 rpm disks and I can see indeed how far those performances about which we're so enthusiastic may have been from the "live" performances in private or public concerts. We already know how important such a difference is between 'um kaltum studio and live performances of a same song. Yet, 'um kalthum in her studio recordings was not uder the tyranny of the three minutes and the silent clock and she didn't have to suspend her rendition in the middle of a piece for 2 minutes and then resume from where she left!
Salih 'abdi-l-hay is a unique paradox, I'm just realising now, with the extraodinary luck he had as per the vocal capabilities he was gifted of on the one hand and his having witnessed part of the magic era and been so close to one of its leading representatives, a'abdi-l-hay hilmi. It seems as though he had a tremendous bunch of assets of which he used the minimum. And the reason can't be a "lack of imagination" as Hatim put it because we know what he did in some of his mawwals at least (there are a few of them in the mawwal sticky). Think of El-bakhti wi-l-qisma fin or Yalli jafaki-l-habib for example! We also know that his renditions of dawrs such as 'afrah wisalak, 'in 'ash fu'adak, Matta' hayatak, Mithlak 'idha hakam bi-l-'adl and Qaddi mahibbak itself were unbelievably beautiful and emotional. So the problem is not one of lack of imagination, of sensibitvity, of inspiration or simply of artistic craftsmanship.

Hattouma
02-05-2006, 20:59
ABu Alaa Reminds us of the wonderful matta hayatak version 2 (did you listen to it Fred ? ) :) ...
Actually to add to the above ...Saleh's Importance to me is that he is almost the only one that i could hear the Egyptian Wasla from as it was performed or as it should be performed. Saleh and Abbas el-beleidy wasla's are the only precious examples i can think of .This is very valuable on its own . ( Oum Kolthoum cannot compensate for this. Oum Kolthoum's show is almost one - person show -as remarkable as it is - and her wasla is of a different nature . As i said before ,I love that balance between different yet intimate Takht players , the chance to improvise but also to play the same pieces again and again (maybe a bit differently here and there ) , the order of one piece after the other (which was unforuntely completley lost)...etc.
so while the records could not capture this wasla concept ..Saleh 's(radio) recordings continued it in someway ...


El-manyalawi is wonderful here Fred ..i am speechless ..! i ascended and descended tel3et we nezelt ..we tela3t we nezelt...elaaaaakkh !

fredlag@noos.fr
02-05-2006, 20:59
But I cant wait to hear your opinion on the 2 Manyalawi files...

أبو علاء
02-05-2006, 21:05
To go back to the excessively contstraining and frustrating conditions under which Manyalawi and co were recorded the hasty way in which he "liquidates" the sentence wana-'mil 'ih sihri-l-jufun khad minni qalbi at the end of the first disk side (around 3' 10") is un cas d'école (the same applies to the sudden conclusive qaflah in bayati at the end when he seemed went in an unendless rast drift). Nevertheless, despite all such constraints and inspite of the bad sound quality, his performance in the sama'i-l-muluk version is simply fantastic. I thought of your remark concerning the dawr reaching its apex in the introductive sentence (madhhab) when I felt the speakers were saturated at willi jarah.

أبو علاء
02-05-2006, 22:24
Two more remarks. The 'ahat section is present in both performances of Manyalawi and we find the same in Hariri's one despite its being "modern" and not in Salih 'abdi-l-hay. The second one concerns the muhayyar section that seems a simple transition from bayati to rast in the early performance (sama'i-l-muluk) as well as in Salah 'abdi-l-hay recordings wheras it receives an much larger development in the Gramophone company. One more thing, Manyalawi's vocal capabilities - his shifting between higher range and lower one as well as his strenght in reacheing the highest tones and "standing" them in the 1909 recording are all the more overwhelming when one considers his age!

fredlag@noos.fr
03-05-2006, 15:56
We will continue today our exploration of different versions of Hazz el hayah, with two different renditions of this dor by Abd al-Hayy Hilmi, the Gramophone and the Odeon recordings.
Odeon 45270 1/2, violin Ibrahim Sahlun
Gramophone 15-12415/16

Unfortunately, they are both somewhat disappointing, both 2 side records, in which Hilmi simply outsketches the dor and does not really allow himself to develop it. The Odeon version even has the madhhab taking the whole 1st side, leaving virtually no space for development on the second side. Not the best Hilmi in my opinion (although I'm a true lover of Hilmi), but quite useful to compare the way the madhhab is sung between different singers, and to understand the core of the dor, almost simplified in his renditions. No ahaat in the Manyalawi way.
The foul mood hypothesis Abu Ala' alludes to in his comments is quite a likely explanation for the average artistic level of both renditions. Abd al-Hayy was known to be very unsatisfied with what the recording companies paid him, to the point that at the end of his recording of qasida "a la fi sabili-llah", which concludes with "wa-yunsifani minki", he added "ya sharikeh", with his Bani Suwayf accent.

Hattouma
03-05-2006, 16:21
المنيلاوي "بيتفسح" الصراحة هنا
معلش ملحوظة من تلميذ
أناأعمل ايه في 7.32
و الحرقة فيها عند 8.06
ايه ده؟؟؟؟؟

Najib
03-05-2006, 22:14
Here I am denying what I said about Hilmi before the sunset! What can I do in the treacherous paths of tarab savouring!

The guy (Maniyalawi) is unbelievable maybe we never heard them like that by anyone else after him because simply you can't imitate him no matter how hard you try.

Is it me or do I think that there is more energy, more happiness in the Sama3 el Muluk version especially at the tempo change in the wana3mel eyh section (4'49 onward)?

To my ear the rendition on the gramophone has got more brain work, the Sam3 one is full of transe.

The result is that I love them both more than the any of the other versions posted on this thread.

Thank you guys what a wonderful way to start an evening!

أبو علاء
03-05-2006, 22:34
Both performances of 'abdi-l-hay are rather disappointing for me, particularly the Gramophone one (apart from that strange drift to nahawand around minute 5). I should say: nothing to write home about. The last section in rast is literally botched up (but ithe same applies to the Odeon record as far as that section is concerned). There is probably much of bad mood to explain the minimalist performance in both records, but this does not necessarily explain the quasi skipping of the second section of the dawr. Because of such extreme shortening, I'm not sure such minimalist rendition provides a valid outline of the dawr. In fact, I found this dawr structure very simple and straight. The whole structure is given in the madhhab in two movevments: bayati-rast, maybe three with the final bayati qaflah. The dor or ghusn simply develops that structure and amplifies it with the sole addition of an optional transition in muhayyar or maybe would it be more appropriate to talk of a double extension of both the bayati and rast sections respectively into muhayyar and rast nawa as in Salih 'abdi-l-hay performance (if I'm not messing all the maqams up; this latter segment of my comment is subject to your confirmation, Najib, Fred and co). Both main (bayati and rast) sections are of equal importance as it appears in Manyalawi as well as in Salih renditions, but such balance is completely disrupted in Himi's.

fredlag@noos.fr
04-05-2006, 01:01
Hattouma, I didn't really get your comment. What do you mean ?

Hattouma
04-05-2006, 10:39
Hattouma, I didn't really get your comment. What do you mean ?

Don't worry Fred, most people don't : )a problem of me always thinking aloud ! I was just wondering what was El-Manyalawi doing in that minute since it really hit me ....What is he doing in The whole dawr is just unbelievable to borrow Najib's expression ..i said "beytfassah" (wondering around ..going here and there ...up and down.. the same expression used in Egypt when one going for a day out : ) . I mostly cannot specify the maqam’s as i am not that experienced yet. I also noticed like Najib that Sama3 el-melouk version is a younger more energetic one . Have not listened to Hilmi’s yet.
Listened to Mursi El-Hariri’s version now ..obviously a step in the direction of Feraq el-Musiqa El-Arabia arrangement more than Saleh’s . Fred , you mentioned ElSafti as a person who would stick to “lahn” (Al-mutreb El-Amin ) , how do you place him then in the performance of al-adwar ?

fredlag@noos.fr
04-05-2006, 11:47
@ Abu Ala' : maybe we have to clear a point concerning what you call "bayyati muhayyar" : you are absolutely right but it needs explaining...
Hazz el hayah is in maqam husayni, so if we consider that the ground degree is dokah, the madhhab is on bayyati/husayni, qafla is bayyati/dokah. Development of the dor is bayyati/husayni and rast/nawa, the conclusion of the dor (ya nas 3agib) hesitates according to singers and versions between rast/kerdan and gaharkah/kerdan, or could be described as rast baladi/kerdan, which is at the frontier between rast/gerkah.
BUT, since we are talking male voices and real degrees, the whole piece is actually transposed on nawa, as are almost all bayyati pieces sung by males, and the ground degree is then nawa. Thus, the ghammaz (theoratically husayni) is actually muhayyar, and the whole development is indeed on bayyati/muhayyar, the final ya nas 3agib is on rast-gaharkah/mahuran.
@ Hatem : Mursi's version is sa3b shwayya, ma3lesh, I could stand it for 3 minutes then had to wash my ears with Cheikh Yusuf. Could't make it, khassa3t. I See what you mean concerning Manyalawi's superb strolling, was I wasn't sure about was thos two moments in his rendition you signaled and the "harqa" you pointed out. As for Safti, he is on the "uthman" side of the uthman/hamuli dialectic, but still definitely in the maqamian aesthetics, I do not see him at all as a step forward Nwirism.
@ everybody : today, qad afraghtu gu3bati with the last recording of this dor I own :

Ahmad effendi Farid
dor/ Hazz el hayah
Polyphon 42640/41
circa 1927
Not a very good voice, a little me3za-like unfortunately, but a very personnal and original version of the dor, with different formulations, close to Manyalawi's but not an imitation of him. Altogether an enjoyable rendition.

Now what I am expecting, for I don't have it :
Muhammad Saliim, zonophone Z102328/29, hazz el hayah
anybody owns it ?
(there is also a version by Zaki Murad on Pathé, but since nobody owns a pathé head, the point is moot)
Fred.

Najib
04-05-2006, 14:32
I think you're too harsh on the guy, his voice is ok, and the rendition is nice, not in the league of Manyalawi of course.

The funny bit is I had to read your last post a lot to understand.

You said Me3za-like and I was thinking Mezza Soprano! Going to too many BBC proms that's the problem :-)

If there is anyone in England that sells Pathe heads just tell me - Raqabti Saddadah. Honestly if I can help revealing a Zaki performance it will be absolutely worth the effort and the cost!

أبو علاء
04-05-2006, 15:14
I don't like his voice much either and the "mi'za" character thereof is quite salient. The rendition instead is laudable and it does have its specific featrures. It's clear this is not an imitation.
Fred, thanks for the explanations concerning the maqams. I knew I wasn't on solid grounds there. But, what I meant basically is that the dawr's scheme is fundamentally simple and consists in a binary structure based on bayati(husayni/dukah/muhayyar)-rast(nawa/kerdan and whatever else) and that Hilmi in bothe recordings hurried over the rast part.

Najib
04-05-2006, 15:31
If Frederic was harsh on the guy, I'm not expecting you to be more lenient. You are cruel!! This is why a compliment from you means a lot :-)

Najib
04-05-2006, 17:21
Is Sihrel GE-foun a correct Cairo pronounciation or is this a Saeed pronounciation?

Ok, so call me pedantic!

Hattouma
04-05-2006, 17:52
Is Sihrel GE-foun a correct Cairo pronounciation or is this a Saeed pronounciation?

Ok, so call me pedantic!
normal general Egyptian pronunciation i would say ..what's not normal is how they sing it :)

Najib
04-05-2006, 17:57
Just checking I though it should be Sihrel GhOUfoun

fredlag@noos.fr
06-05-2006, 01:52
gufun sounds more natural, and all the Egyptians I called today to check the matter say "gufun", except one who says "gefun". You'll notice that Ahmad Farid pronounces "gufun".

But anyways, ever since the guy from Menufeyya elli mesh 3ayez azaffar lesani be esmo started saying on public television "dewal" instead of "duwal", which I find sort of embarrassing, who knows how things should be pronounced anymore ?
:D

Najib
06-05-2006, 19:29
Thanks a lot Fred,

Gefun sounded Sa3eediyyah!

Hattouma
09-05-2006, 11:08
شكرا فريديريك ولنا عودة للألحان والغناء ؛ ولكن دعنا نقدّم بعض البيانات عن الدّور أوّلا :

الكلمات : محمّد الدّرويش
اللّحن : عبده الحامولي (حسب قصطندي رزق وكامل الخلعي وإن كان محمود كامل نسبه إلى محمّد عثمان)
المقام : بياتي (وقد جاء عند الخلعي "حسيني دوكاه"، وهي صيغة غريبة متكرّرة في ذكر مقامات الموشّحات والأدوار عنده ؛ أمّا قسطندي رزق فقد ذكر في موضع المقام عبارة غريبة لم أفقه لها خعنى صدّر نصّ الدّور بعبارة "مذهب شرحه"، وعلى هذا الاعتبار تكون كلمة "شرحه" للدّلالة على المقام، ا



أبو علاء
شرحه كلمة عامية مصرية قديمة من معانيها
مثل سابقه أو
The same as before
و قسطندي ذكره بعد دور جددي يا نفس حظك فالمعنى:
دور حظ الحياة مقامه مثل دور جددي يا نفس حظك حسيني دوكاه

Ye3ni he means Ditto! :D

أبو علاء
09-05-2006, 11:52
شكرا يا حاتم على... الشّرح.:)

Hattouma
10-05-2006, 14:36
I get it Fred :) ...I noticed Abdel -Wahab says Goufoun as well in his qasida ...
...i was thinking in singular i would say Gefni not Goufni ...:), anyway i like gefoun more ...:)


gufun sounds more natural, and all the Egyptians I called today to check the matter say "gufun", except one who says "gefun". You'll notice that Ahmad Farid pronounces "gufun".

But anyways, ever since the guy from Menufeyya elli mesh 3ayez azaffar lesani be esmo started saying on public television "dewal" instead of "duwal", which I find sort of embarrassing, who knows how things should be pronounced anymore ?
:D