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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : مونولوجات القصبجي وأمّ كلثوم



أبو علاء
09-05-2006, 12:14
كنّا قد قدّمنا في وقت سابق بعض تسجيلات أمّ كلثوم القديمة مثل ألحان أحمد صبري النّجريدي وطقاطيق القصبجي وأدوار زكريا أحمد، وقد لفت نظري هذه الأيّام سؤال من حاتم عن أحد مونولوجات القصبجي أنّ ما غنّته السّيّدة لهذا الملحّن من ذاك القالب قد لا يكون معروفا ومتداولا على النّحو الّذي أتوقّعه ؛ فرأيت أن أرفع هنا بعض أهمّ تلك الألحان.
ولا بدّ من التّذكير أنّه لئن كان القصبجي قد استأثر بالنّصيب الأوفر ممّا غنّته أمّ كلثوم وغيرها (مثل فتحيّة أحمد وحتّى صالح عبد الحي)، لا يدانيه في ذلك سوى محمّد عبد الوهاب فيما لحّنه وغنّاه بنفسه، وبدا باعتباره الزّعيم المؤسّس لهذا القالب المحدّد لمعالمه والمرسّخ لأسسه وأسلوبه (لم تغنّ أمّ كلثوم لزكريا والسّنباطي سوى مونولوجين أو ثلاثة لكلّ منهما)، إلاّ أنّ القصبجي لم يكن، خلافا لما يقال ويعتقدد، أوّل من لحّن المونولوج وأوّل مونولوجين غنّتهما أمّ كلثوم كانا من ألحان أحمد صبري النّجريدي بين 1924 و 1926 وهما خايف يكون حبّك ليّ شفقه عليّ وواللّه ما حدّش جنى (وأعتقد أنّهما موجودان ضمن مجموعة ألحان النّجريدي الّتي سبق رفعها).
وهذه الدّفعة الأولى تضمّ خمسة مونولوجات اشتهر الأوّلان منها باعتبارهما النّموذجان المؤسّسان لهذا القالب كما كانا الأكثر انتشارا باعتبار عدد الاسطوانات الّتي طبعت منهما وبيعت، إلاّ أنّهما فيما عدا قيمتهما التّجاريّة و"العلميّة" أو التّعليميّة ليسا المونولوجين المفضّلين عندي لأسباب لا أظنّها تخفى، بل إنّي أفضّل عليهما المونولوجات الثّلاثة التّالية بكثير.


I'll post here some of the monologues produced by Muhammad Al-qasabji and 'um kalthum between the late twenties and the late thirties

kabh01
09-05-2006, 21:00
القصبجي كان هو المفروض أن يكون زعيم التجدد و ليس عبد الوهاب. انه كان حقا لعبقري وسابق لعصره وأوانه

أغني أسمهان وحدها كافيه أن تعطيه هذا الشرف. عداك عن أغاني أم كلثوم وليلى مراد.

kabh01
09-05-2006, 21:03
شكرا جزيلا على هذه التحف

أبو علاء
09-05-2006, 21:32
الشّكر لك يا أخي هلال ؛ أرى أن لا مفرّ من الاعتراف بوجود عناصر مشتركة في موسيقى القصبجي وعبد الوهاب ومذهبهما الجماليّ (أقول "لا مفرّ" لأنّي لا أحبّ عبد الوهاب:) )، إلاّ أنّي أعتقد أنّ القصبجي أسبق وأعمق وأصدق، وربّما كان للصّفتين الأخيرتين، وإن بدا ذلك من المفارقات، من بين أسباب انقطاع مسار تجربته ومسيرته الفنّيّة في وقت مبكّر نسبيّا مقابل امتداد تجربة عبد الوهاب ومسيرته ؛ ثمّ إنّ القصبجي فوق ما أسلفت وحده حريّ بأن نصفه بالعبقريّة ؛ أمّا عبد الوهاب فأقصى ما يقال عنه في نظريّ هو أنّه "شاطر" بالمعنى العامّيّ المصريّ للكلمة، وما دمنا استعنّا بالعامّيّة المصريّة فدعوني أضيف "فهلوي" أو أن ساتحضر هذا المثل اللّطيف الّذي حفظته عن بعض الزّملاء المصريّين "أكل العيش يحبّ الخفّيه".

kabh01
09-05-2006, 22:04
أليابانيون هم أحسن مقلدين. فقد سبقوا الغرب في التكنولوجيا لتوفر مقومات الأنتاج الكمي والنوعي نسبيا الى جانب المثابره والتصميم والعلا قات التجاريه:)

عبد الوهاب رحمه الله كان متمرسا في فن النقل (الذكي ربما) فقد كان ناقلا من الدرجه الممتازه. كل هذا كان متوجا بعلاقات اجتماعيه متينه الى جانب التفنن في المجامله.

Besides his charisma he really was highly artisitc in people's skills;)

I must admit this business in particular needs a lot of luck and he probably had a great deal!

أبو علاء
09-05-2006, 22:23
وهذه دفعة أخرى من المونولوجات وأريد أن ألفت أنظاركم بوجه خاصّ إلى مونولوج ياللّي جفاك المنام وهو من أحبّ هذه المونولوجات عندي إلى جانب مونولوج سكتّ والدّمع اتكلّم وياللّي ودادي صفا لك ويا نجم مالك حيران، وهو أحدث هذه المجموعة عهدا ؛ والطّريف أنّي استوقفني اليوم خلال قراءتي لأجزاء من أطروحة فريديريك تعليق عن الطّابع البدائيّ والسّاذج الّذي اتّسم به مونولوج سكتّ والدّمع اتكلّم ففاجأني ذلك الحكم لأوّل وهلة، إلاّ أنّي أدرك سبب حكمه ذاك ولعلّ ذلك نفسه هو أحد أسباب إعجابي بهذا المونولوج.:)


Here's another series of these monologues. My preferred one among them is Yalli jafaki-l-manam that I love as much as Sikitti wi-d-dam'i-tkallim (uploaded above). Funny enough, my attention was drawn today to a comment in Fred's thesis on the latter as to the naive character of the latter or some aspects in its composition. I, of course, understand what he meant there, but I'm afraid that's one of the very reasons for which I like it. You see, I think :)I'm a hopeless case in my classicism and conservatism

luay
11-05-2006, 15:27
Thank you Abu A'laa.
I have a question: you considered "Inna Hali Fee Hawaha A'gab" to be a monolog. Given my technical ignorance, I thought poems and monologs are disjoint, that is a song cannot be a poem and at the same time a monolog. So, I'm confused now: is a song defined to be a "monolog" based on the lyrics, the music, or both? I had thought it was the lyrics!

Best,
Luay

أبو علاء
11-05-2006, 15:52
The lyrics, to a certain extent, are indeed one of the elements relevant to the definition of various chant patterns but probably not the most decisive one and, in any case, not based on the distinction classical Arabic/dialect. From the point of view of composition, the distinction between a "song" like 'inna hali and let us say 'araka 'asiya-d-dam'i or kam ba'athna ma'a-na-nasimi salama is quite clear and if we compare 'inna hali with 'araka 'asiya-d-dam'i or 'ukadhdhibu nafsi on the one hand and with 'in kunt-asamih or sikitti-wi-d-dam'i-tkallim for instance on the other hand, it should be easy to find out with which of the two groups there are more formal similarities from the point of view of both the composition and the interpertation. I don't want to elaborate further on this classification because I would have to choose between making my own development out of my empirical experience of such questions, which might be good enough when you don't have better solution, but why do it when we have the possibility of getting a more systematic (scientific) approach? and reproducing Fredéric Lagrange's analyses (as shown in his thesis) and, in this case, it would be better to leave him introduce them in his own words.

luay
11-05-2006, 17:29
Thanks Abu A'laa, but I have an even more complicated (unless it turns out to be bogus) question, probably :-)
You compared Inna Halee to Ukadhibbu Nafsi and Araka A'siyya-d-dama'e, which are classical poems (as far as lyrics go) and composed based on the "old school" of poems (as far as music goes). Inna Halee is definitely closer to In Kont Asameh than to these two poems, but it's very close to poems such as Asqiniha, etc., which are composed
based on the "new school" of poems.
You might be wondering why the heck a technically ignorant person talks about old and new schools, but it seems to me the style of Abu-l E'la Mhammad, et al., is totally different from the poem composition style that Qassabji, Sunbati, Wahab, et al., adopted,
and by old and new, I refer to "time" and not to which one is better (my personal opinion: I prefer the "new" one).

Thanks.
Luay

Hattouma
11-05-2006, 18:04
there's a classic musical term called El-Qasida ..(Muwaqqaa /Mawzuna or Mursalla )..
of course what Sunbaty ,etc did take it outside of this classification .Theirs is a qasida only as far as the lyrics are concerned.. (even though some historians think it is:
تطوير لقالب القصيدة
i see it more as :
عدم تقيد بقالب القصيدة

luay
11-05-2006, 18:48
What do you have against Sunbati Hatim :-)

No, seriously, I would like to make a point (and you guys are all way much more sophisticated than me in music, so ignore any non-sense I make): When you say "non-compliance with the the Qaseeda style" (A'dam Taqayyud Be-Qaleb Al-Qaseeda), this would imply that what was before Sunbati, etc., was THE RIGHT style of composing the qaseeda, and then those guys came and deviated from it. I don't think there is such a thing as THE RIGHT style, but I may be totally wrong here. Similarly, I don't know what it means to say that Sunbati etc. "developed" the qaseeda style; he and others simply used a different style.

I guess what I'm alluding to is that the concepts of "tatweer" (improvement/development) and "taqayyud" (compliance) may be problematic, since using them would imply that there is "THE RIGHT STYLE" (in absolute terms), and this is very debatable.

Again, my non-technical 2-cents take on this issue...
Luay

Hattouma
11-05-2006, 20:38
oh no Luay i love Sunbaty's work ..all i am saying is as you put it "" he and others simply used a different style"" ..they really made new types of songs with a bit of everything and new things ..very difficult to catagorize in the old way (Qaseeda , Taqtuqa , ...etc ).

luay
11-05-2006, 20:41
I was joking, Hatim.
I know you love Sunbati's music, but the points I was making
are general to the discussion we're having on monolog/qaseeda/etc.,
and not directed at your comments.

All the best,
Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
11-05-2006, 23:54
to make it clear and fast, there is in arabic a huge confusion between poetic forms and musical forms due to the fact that some words (muwashshah, qasida, mawwal) are used to describe both these and those.
In the case of the qasida, the Egyptian urban school developped during the 19th century a new way of singing "poetic" qasida on a takht (probably a transfer from sufi inshad and zikr toward art music), that is on cycle wahda, with an improvised or semi-composed melody and various idiosyncrasies. This form, called qasida 3ala al-wahda, or qasida muwaqqa3a, or mawzuna, or even "qasida ah ya ana" (due to the extensive use of the melodic phrase know as "dulab al-3awazel" not only at the beginning but in all the phases of the song) was known as typically Egyptian in the middle-east, to the point that non-Egyptian singers recording at the beginning of the century always pronounced the letter ج as /g/ instead of /j/ when singing a qasida 3ala al-wahda (until early 20s).
There was also an older way of singing the qasida, that is with no cycle, with for sole rythm the meter of the verses : this is the qasida mursala. Its melody was totally improvised (until WW1 at least). This way of singing the qasida resembled to some extent the mawwal, except for the qarar-gawab-qarar architecture of the mawwal.
From the mid-twenties on, those two ways of singing the qasida began to be felt by the modernists as too limitating, and they decided to compose melodies demanding non-takht instruments, mixing metric and non-metric sections, "expressing" the sentiments depicted in the lyrics, etc. Since this way of composing actually depicts the aesthetics of the "monologue" (usually in refined dialect), we can say that poetic-qasa'id of the 30s and 40s are actually composed as monologues, they are "monologat" 3ala sa3id al-qaalab al-musiqi, wa qasa'id 3ala sa3id al-qalab al-shi3ri...
But since the 1850-1925 way of singing qasa'id (ala al-wahda or mursala) began to be seen as the "old way", the "traditional way" (it wasn't *that* old, actually...), the habit of naming musical forms by the poetic nature of the texts sung on them remained the rule.
To a certain extent, one could almost argue that Farid al-Atrash's adnaytani bil-hagr is a "qasida 3ala al-wahda" in the old way (actually it is not, the way the words are cut, the logic of the composition, the ornaments, the orchestra, etc. are all completely at odds with the aesthetics of the nahda-esque qasida 3ala al-wahda), whereas "al atlal" is simply a "ughniya" based on a qasida...
But in conclusion, it is not for musicologists to decide how a musical work should be called and classified, it is the musicians problem. Musicologist can only observe the evolution of a word and try to reconstruct the way forms evolve with time.

أبو علاء
12-05-2006, 00:10
Thanks a lot Fred. Wasn't I right to prefer having you say it in your own way and your own way? Would I have done it, I would have produced a less systematic explanation.

luay
12-05-2006, 03:50
Thank you both for clarifying this issue to me (I turned out to be misinformed about monologues; I always thought it's the lyrics that defined a monologue, rather than the music).
Anyway, you both said the same thing, but Fred's explanation was longer and more scientific :-)

So, if Adnaytani Belhagr is a qaseeda composed on the Wehda, and Al Atlal is a qaseeda composed as an Ughnia, can we say that Ayadhunnu by Abd El Wahab is NOT a song at all :-) :-)

Thanks again.
Luay

أبو علاء
12-05-2006, 10:34
Absolutely. You're granted a diploma in musicology with the highest grade possible.:)

3amr
12-05-2006, 12:07
It must really be an amazing coicidence that this forum has brought together pretty much everybody on the internet who hates Abd El Wahab,

then again, it could well be that there is just an amazingly high concentration of people with exceptionally good taste around here :D

all I know is, I've finally found people who can't see what all the fuss is about.

luay
12-05-2006, 14:42
Thanks Abu A'laa for the honor :-) and welcome 3amr.
Let me speak for myself: I do NOT hate Abd El Wahab, or any musician for that matter, but as you put it at the end, I FAIL TO UNDERSTAND all the fuss around Abd El Wahab.
To me, he did a good job until the early 40's, and after that, it was just a popularity contest for him. Om Kulthoum is by far my most favorite singer, but I hate it when I read the term "Liqaa Assahab" about her meeting with Wahab in Inta Omri. If anything, Inta Omri and the other jokes that Wahab, Baligh and others composed to Om Kulthoum helped in "repelling" some of her fans (well, thanks to these guys, Om Kulthoum won the "support" of Suhair Zaki, who could now dance to the music). Om Kulthoum's "cloud nine" is Gholobt Asaleh, Raqq El Habib, Holm, etc.
Abd El Wahab did good stuff in Al-Gundol, Al-Karnak, etc., but still, I don't understand the all the fuss around him, as you put it.

Best regards,
Luay

أبو علاء
13-05-2006, 02:31
Needless to say I totally agree with Luay. Ya tara ya nisma is in my view a masterpiece (one of the rare ones in his repertory). I like Billil ya ruhi too. There is also a few monologues I like of which I like the "oriental part". Sikitti lih ya lisani is a typical example as well as Yalli bitnadi 'alifak...etc In a different register, I find El-karnak quite pleasant (much more than El-gundul. Actually, I think Cleopatra is better than the latter.). 'ijri ya nil, Ya shira'an wara'a dijlata yajri....
As for what he provided 'um kalthum with and, more genearlly, all the stuff he produced since the late fourties or early fifties... Well, there's nothing to write home about it.

Hattouma
15-05-2006, 21:55
طب موسيو فريد سؤال
هل من الممكن التميز بين نوعين أو مرحلتين من المونولوج
مونولوج مسرحي أكثر(ولله تستاهل يا قلبي
و مونولوج غنائى المستقل بتاع القصبجي و عبده....الخ؟

bakkar
25-08-2006, 03:38
الله عليك يا أبا علاء
أكمل لنا مجموعة قصب بهذه النوعية فهي درر الدرر
نحن بانتظار طالت ليالي البعاد ويا عشرة الماضي وأيها الفلك
ولو كان هناك إمكانية لتأريخ هذه البدائع نكون لك من الشاكرين

أبو علاء
25-08-2006, 14:12
مرحبا بالأخ الكريم وشكرا على الاهتمام.
هذه طالت ليالي البعاد وأيّها الفلك على وشك الرّحيل، أمّا يا عشرة الماضي الجميل فأمهلني إلى حين نقلها إلى الحاسوب، وهناك عناوين أخرى لم أرفعها ضمن هذا الموضوع إمّا لأنّها غير جاهزة للرّفع أو لأنّها ليست من المونولوجات المحبّبة إليّ، ولكن أنّى يكن الأمر فإنّي سأحاول تدارك ذلك النّقص في المستقبل ؛ وأمّا تواريخ تسجيل هذه المونولوجات فيمكن نقلها من الكتب الّتي دوّنت بها كلمات أغاني السّيّدة مع ضرورة التّحفّظ والتّحرّي إن أمكن التّحرّي إذ يحدث أن تكون تلك التّواريخ خاطئة أو على الأقلّ غير دقيقة، وأنا أملك اثنين من تلك الكتب إلاّ أنّ أشملها فيما يبدو هو "موسوعة" فكتور سحّاب، وهو بحوزة نجيب.