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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : The First Masters 2/5



fredlag@noos.fr
11-05-2006, 21:47
Today's almost forgotten artist is Abu Ala's favorite, Ali ‘Abd al-Bari (1868-1936). Ali Abd al-Bari was Manyalawi's madhhabgi for a long time. He recorded for Gramophone and Odeon in the pre-war era.

This is not a dor, for once, but a qasida muwaqqa3a.

qasida rast / in kan manzilati

Gramophone 14-12334/35

record in excellent condition, perfect duplication, and for once, not Anani's collection (maho fih masader tanya bardo...). dulab el-3awazel sung in rast.

أبو علاء
11-05-2006, 22:27
Thank you so much, Fred. I might come back after listening. Could you contribute to this thread? It would be better than my trying to summarize your analyses on the matter: http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1050&page=2

Hattouma
11-05-2006, 23:43
شكراً فريد على علي أفندي ...نفسي أفهم
""قوم مضيع العزال""
!

fredlag@noos.fr
12-05-2006, 00:06
الارجح أن مضيع العذال هو أصلا ما أضيع العذال، على صيغة ما أفعل...

أبو علاء
14-05-2006, 18:51
What I like most about this qasidah is its mode. I might be wrong, but I have the impression rast is relatively less commonly used in qasa'id as compared to bayati and huzam. Not that I think as many people nowadays that rast is the fundamental mode in Arabic music (I think instead such "fundamental mode" if any would be bayati), but simply because I like it as well as its derivated forms, in partiuclar suznak that is heavily present in this qasidah.
As for 'ali 'abdi-l-bari, despite a charactaristic he more or less shares with 'ali-l-harith that I find it difficult to describe in English (I think theys say sut 'aqra' in Arabic) and without reaching the beauty of Al-harith voice, his voice is quite nice. This said, I'm tempted to apply to him your own judgement on Safti. I don't think there's a great deal of invention in his renditions. His performances look rather like good reprductions.

3amr
14-05-2006, 20:33
the Qasida I believe is by Ibnil Faarid, I have it in the form of an iraqi maqam (oddly enough, it's maqam rast), read by hassan khayyookah with jamil bashir's band, I can upload upon request.

القصيدة حسب معلوماتي لإبن الفارض

Hattouma
15-05-2006, 16:34
القصيدة عجبتني جدا في الواقع أحب القصائد الموقعة على الراست الذات أحس انه يناسب نوع الإلقاء
(تعجبني مثلا غيري على السلوان و كم بعثنا في صيغة الراست أكثر )

fredlag@noos.fr
15-05-2006, 16:59
بس غيري على السلوان سيكاه هزام (إن كنت تتحدث عن صيغة أبو العلا محمد)

أبو علاء
15-05-2006, 17:04
حاتم يقصد لحنا مختلفا من مقام الرّاست غنّاه سيّد النّقشبندي وكان قد رفعه زرياب في منتداه.

Hattouma
15-05-2006, 17:28
here
http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?t=701&

Najib
15-05-2006, 19:04
He is really good, I like it his ida' very mutrib indeed.

Is that the guy who on some recroding you see:

Doctor Abdel Bari? Or is that someone else?

fredlag@noos.fr
15-05-2006, 19:48
Doctor Abdel Bari ? Where did you read this mention ?

Just listened to Naqshabandi's rast rendition of "ghayri 3ala s-silwan". Quite mutrib as well, but not at all a "qasida 3ala al-wahda" in the hamulian sense. It's amazing how an Egyptian of the 40s>60s had no clue whatsoever about the way the qasida 3ala wahda's (former) aesthetics. He has all those long melismatic stances on one syllable, like Um Kulthum in 40s concerts, but this is not at all the way the qasida 3ala al-wahda was sung. It had nothing to do with isti3rad 3adalat in long breath and melismas, it had to do with mathematics and playing with the wahda, inventing subtle melodic sentences made to fit in 2 or 3 or 4 cycles of the wahda, not 8 or 9 or 10 and holding your breath, it was all about cutting your verse, and placing an ultra fast melisma before the dum would hit, all about having a dialogue with the ever returning dulab al awazel, cheating with them, calling the awazel and eluding them at the last second. Abd al-Bari is completely in this spirit, not as fantastic as Manyalawi, but much more serene and "intelligent" than naqshabandi.
The last brilliant examples of this art are in my opinion the 2 ennemies, Mahmud Subh and the young Muhammad Abd al-Wahhab, in such masterpieces as "batat tunagini 3uyunuh" and "minka ya hagiru da'i", in which he is a gifted pupil of Abu al-Ela, although he and Subh had started to eliminate the chess play with the 3awazel. See how Ali Mahmud, as well, knew when to do the long extended syllables in qasa'id mursala, and when to stick and abide by the precise and serene aesthetics of qasida 3ala al-wahda in his amazing bastanikar 'fa ya girat al-shi3b al-yamaani"...

Hattouma
15-05-2006, 20:42
Just listened to Naqshabandi's rast rendition of "ghayri 3ala s-silwan". Quite mutrib as well, but not at all a "qasida 3ala al-wahda" in the hamulian sense. It's amazing how an Egyptian of the 40s>60s had no clue whatsoever about the way the qasida 3ala wahda's and abide by the precise and serene aesthetics of qasida 3ala al-wahda in his amazing bastanikar 'fa ya girat al-shi3b al-yamaani"...

I cannot thank you enough for making this point clear .....one feels the difference but not eduacted enough to understand it ...ahlan beek ...la fe3lan ahlan beek ..menawar ! :) i will look for 'fa ya girat al-shi3b al-yamaani"...

3amr
15-05-2006, 20:45
You know, you should really be teaching this stuff, or at least writing a very very long book about it, I for one would be very interested in reading it.

Though I am somewhat confused at seeing Sheikh Subh and Abdel Wahhab in the same sentence, I am still trying to figure out what happened to Abdel Wahab that turned him from a promissing talent to and empty husk of a megalomaniac (I am being a bit harsh perhaps).

I'm wondering what would happen if you go the Saeed in egypt, pick out a young guy with an excellent voice, teach him how to sing properly, and have Fred make him listen to hours of Manyalawi, Hilmi, and everybody else; coaching him and explaining about qasa2id and muwashahat, I am imagining we'll get one heck of a Mutrib.
I can already visualize it, the boy sitting there, and Mr. Lagrange standing beside a picture of Nweira going like: "this my son, is satan"

fredlag@noos.fr
15-05-2006, 21:02
We could actually install three photographs of Nwira and throw stones at them...
:D :D

3amr
15-05-2006, 21:07
ok, now that got me laughing for five minutes straight. :D

but seriously, would be a good idea wouldn't it? I mean, the best way to become a Mutrib is to listen to the best, free of all western and nweira influence.

small problem though, we'd have to train a whole takht as well.

Hattouma
16-05-2006, 00:03
ما يتحدث عنه فريد تخطناه في مصر منذ زمن بعيد حيث تقرر إنها موسيقى بدائية بالنسبة لألحان المرحلة التالية في الأربعينات و الخمسينات ... و (الغريب إنهم بعد ذلك يتعجبون من""سقوط"" الموسيقى بعد الستينات .....إلخ

أما احنا... نخبط راسنا في الحيط

Hattouma
16-05-2006, 00:44
ما يتحدث عنه فريد تخطناه في مصر منذ زمن بعيد حيث تقرر إنها موسيقى بدائية بالنسبة لألحان المرحلة التالية في الأربعينات و الخمسينات ... و (الغريب إنهم بعد ذلك يتعجبون من""سقوط"" الموسيقى بعد الستينات .....إلخ

أما احنا... نخبط راسنا في الحيط

i am listening to Ali Mahmoud's ya geerat el-shaab el-yamani now ...hmmmmmmm ;)

fredlag@noos.fr
16-05-2006, 00:59
al-shI‘b al-yamaani, habibi, not al-shA‘b, nothing to do with the Yemenite people. I think it means the rukn yamaani, the southern side, of the great mosque in Mekka, I suppose. al-gira = al-mugawirun. Or correct me anyone ?
Did you like the qasida ? And its bastanikar ?

Hattouma
16-05-2006, 01:20
yes of course el-shiib el-yamani . it''s too late for me now i should go to sleep ..

it is great (even without el-3awazel :) .it is the first time i think i hear a qasida in this maqam ...(i should mention almost any thing that passes on Saba touches me deeply )

tesbahu ala kheir
ولا تغلقوا الأبواب دوني
!

Najib
16-05-2006, 11:18
where is the bestenikar Qasidah that you guys are talking about?

أبو علاء
16-05-2006, 11:41
Coming soon in a 'ali Mahmud thread I've just opened in the religiuous chant section.

Najib
16-05-2006, 12:02
Based on what Fred was explaining about the rules of singing a qasida, can he or you two put some examples with the explanation.

Maybe a thread of tatawur al qasidah arriving to Abdel Wahab (Qabbaha allahu wajhah)?

Hattouma
16-05-2006, 15:03
Based on what Fred was explaining about the rules of singing a qasida, can he or you two put some examples with the explanation.

Maybe a thread of tatawur al qasidah arriving to Abdel Wahab (Qabbaha allahu wajhah)?

Najib ""qabbah allah wajhuh"was Nwira's ...need to find something else for Wahab :)

Najib
16-05-2006, 15:08
أزال الله ذكره من كل شفة ولسان

طويله شوي بس معلش عبدالوهاب بيستاهل

Najib
19-05-2006, 00:48
@Fred: What I have in my big bag of cassettes (literally a big neylon rubbish bag full of cassettes, which my wife one day is going to through it outside, change the locks, and never let me in again) is a cassette that I haven't digitized yet, and the first thing on Face B is Dor Salimat Rou7ak Ya Fouadi, and underneath is written Doctor Ali Abdel Bari.

That's the only info I have. If you (and the rest of the gang) don't have it, then I'll digitize it this weekend!

أبو علاء
19-05-2006, 13:05
That bag of yours is certainly most valuable as was proven in a recent past and I'm sure it has'nt given away all its secrets to date, but not on this one, though. Sallimti ruhak (a gorgeous dawr of Dawud Husni as you would describe it, in shuri mode) was among the contents of the CD published by l'Institut du Monde Arabe "L'âge d'or de la musique arabe". I can upload it if you so wish. We have also 'abdi-l-bari version of Da'i-l-'adhul dah min fikrak (also composed by Dawud Husni) here. I'm not sure now, but I think there's a third dawr by him among the series of Maslub 'adwar I uploaded some time ago.

Najib
19-05-2006, 13:20
Yes I have that CD, and great! What a good opportunity to listen to it again now!

3amr
12-08-2007, 18:58
و هنا القصيدة نفسها في قالب مقام الراست العراقي.

http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1250

امير منصور
15-08-2007, 19:11
I just want to add a discographic point. It (Gramophone 14-12334/35)must be recorded about 1912

fredlag@noos.fr
17-08-2007, 00:11
@ Amir Mansur :
Gramophone catalogue numbers are not sufficient by themselves to obtain a sure date, with Gramophone / Zonophone / HMV, it is necessary to have the matrix number.

But yes, you are right, concerning this very record. it was released in August 1912, and it is part of Arthur S. Clarke's recording sessions in Cairo, January 1912.
More recordings of the same session were released in april 1913 (bader 3ala hazz el-ayyamx; asl el-gharam nazra) and october 1913 (hawa habibi yewafeqni)
Fred.