مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : Kunuz Dar Al Kotob - 1/3

25-05-2006, 14:21
Dar al-Kotob in Cairo owns a wonderful collection of Arabic 78rpm recordings, that the Egyptian National Library acquired after the passing away of a great collector. The collection is listed in the two volumes entitled :
فهرس الموسيقى والغناء العربي القديم
first part alif-sin published 1990, second part mim-ya' published 1998
Of course, the great mystery is : "where the hell is the shin-lam part" ? Well, if anybody can answer this, PLEASE tell me, because these 2 volumes are all I have and I would damn well want to see the middle part.
When I tried to copy some of the records held there back in 1990, I was told I needed a permit from the Ministry of Culture and the Ministry of Foreign affairs. This immensely entertained Abdel Aziz Anany, who thought it was hilarious that recording shaykh Yusuf was considered a matter of National Security. I wasn't that amused myself, until I discovered that all it *really* took was being very nice and polite with the curator (I'm not talking bribes at all, simply helping around, signalling mistakes, chatting around a glass of tea, hagat keda). So I finally got to make some copies. The trouble wasn't the quality of the records, actually well kept and clearly organized, but the fact there was hardly any equipment to play them, except a lousy pick-up of the early 70s with a reversable needle (a 33/45rpm side and a 78rpm), that probably hurted the records more than really made them hearable.
DO NOT expect Anani-like quality for those transfers. These are songs I consider very rare and valuable, since they were not in the Anani collection, and until a better recording is offered, we'll have to deal with those mediocre sound files. I have extensively filtered them to extract some voice out of them, which gives them a very slight metallic sound sometimes.

First in the list is Sulayman Abu Dawud's rendition of dor rast / Maliki ana 3abdak, much less developed then in Ali al-Harith's version, quite different from it and yet really remarkable in my taste, Abu Dawud proving his talent, including amazing conclusive layali on bamb after a surprisingly abrupt qafla, when one is still craving for more of the dor.
Odeon 31110 1/2 recorded Cairo circa 1905/1906
Abu Dawud (haader) is recorded with the famed firqat Odeon and its delicious heavily played 3ud.
سليمان أبو داود : دور / مليكي أنا عبدك
من اسطوانات دار الكتب المصرية

أبو علاء
25-05-2006, 15:30
You're luckier than me, Fred (concerning the book) because I only have the first volume out of three and when I asked the people of Al-hay'a-l-misriyah Al-'ammah in the Cairo book fair in 2001, they said it was the only published volume!
As for the dawr itself, yes 'abu Dawud's interpertation is interesting both per se and as an indicator which allows us to better determine the composed elements in this dawr (I'm as much surprised by the abrupt way this interpretation is cut short in contrast with the conclusive nice layalis, but I think that it's the straight jacket of the 78 rpm that's to blame/credit for all this). But, doesn't this performance even underline 'ali Al-harith's talent and the exceptional character of his performance?
More generally speaking, it occurs to me that in late recordings of dawr (eg. that couple of ones by 'ali Al-harith but also Safti's and Murad's), the structure of performed dawrs seems much more equiibrated than in the early ones made by Manyalawi, Hilmi and Dawud. In the former, the various sections (madhhab, dor, hank) receive a proportionally equal treatment. Whereas, in the latter, there is often a certain disproportion between those parts (I just remember Manyalawi or Hilmi, I'm not sure, literally wrapping up the last part of Hadhdhi-l-hayat). This is maybe due to the fact that the recording industry with its technical constraints took the older generation performers by surprise and they haven't had the chance to adapt their technique to such a new reality whereas the younger ones have had more time to get used to it and to adjust their "landmarks" accordingly.

25-05-2006, 17:05
I totally agree with you Mohsen regarding underlining Al Hareth's rendition.

Fred you're going to hate me now. This dor is definitely Souznak!!

The problem wasn't about the notes hicaz on neva, no, the problem is how much hicaz is shown. Think of it as a percentage of hicaz used towards the total time of the piece. This time the hicaz on neva is all over the place, and this dor deserves to be under maqam Souznak.

25-05-2006, 17:19
Oh but I would have called it dor suznak without a second of hesitation, just feared you would argue with this classification...

25-05-2006, 17:25

أبو علاء
25-05-2006, 18:01
Ok, friends. Please, don't think I'm bringing trouble in an atmosphere of peace and harmony:) ! But, I think what Najib referred to by his comment is this:

Now, what do you mean "having gins higaz on nawa doesn't make rast suznak " ? Then what is suznak ? because it's just a sentence, a passing color ? Then why do you call "shuri" the smallest sentence in bayyati with higaz on nawa ?

Our discussion concerning nayruz and suznak in El-bulbul jani is still present in Najib's mind and that's why he wrote this.
Now, let's try and sort things out. There's no divergent opinions as to Maliki being suznak since hijaz is, as Najib put it, "all over the place".
As for El-bulbul, instead, there are two points in debate: first, is 'abu Dawud's version (the only one I've heard to date) nayruz based? Fred says yes. I think the contrary. Second, is the dawr originally composed (and interpreted by others) in suznak mode as Fred says. I frankly don't know. But, Najib says it's simply a dawr basically in rast because whatever colouring is there, it is not more than a slight (limited in time) hijaz (= suznak) colouring and that doesn't warrant its classification as suznak, hence his apparently contradictory assertion that struck Fred: "having gins higaz on nawa doesn't make rast suznak ". What Najib's referring to there, I guess, is the suznak pattern in Ottoman music. Just listen to both Tatyos pesrev and semai in suznak (both are available on Kudsi Erguner double CD on Tatyos works) and you'll see what he means. In Ottoman music, suznak is not fundamentally rast slightly coloured with hijaz as is commonly the case with the Egyptians.
I don't know whether I made things a bit clearer o wheher, in the contrary, I complicated them further (knowing that, on top of that, my theoretical knowledge is obisouly lower than that of both of you).:)

25-05-2006, 19:30
I'm sorry guys that I'm confusing you of course rast + hicaz = Suznak in terms of the makam notes, but it's how apparent the Hicaz is that is important.

I need to upload a Suznak teksim by Udi Hrant Kankulian because it's a wonderful example.

This why I get pissed off when people call Ya Shady el Alhan suznak because the amount of hicaz on neva constitutes a very little part of the whole and it's not bold enough to classify under Suznak contrarily to the dor that Fred uploaded today which is:

سوزناك بشريطه

26-05-2006, 00:31
To return to Abu Dawud's rendition, it is not only a "scientific document" enabling us to appreciate the degree to which a singer can variate on a precomposed canvas. I really believe one should listen to it "innocently", without thinking of Ali al-Harith's beautiful version, and without any "horizon d'attente" determined by a recording made twenty years later. The Egyptian school of the early 20th century gives a huge latitude to singers in their interpretation of a composed piece, and Ali al-Harith recorded his renditions in the very late 20s, after 30 if not 40 years years of listening to "maliki ana 3abdak" and "hazz el hayah", at the very end of this accumulation process. So no wonder a true genius like him could offer a very personal and enthusiastic reading of the piece.
I absolutely agree with Abu Ala' : recording artists of the pre-war era were still discovering the 78rpm record and didn't really know how to organize a musical discourse in 7 or 15 minutes. The true wonder is that Manyalawi, Safti, Hilmi, Abu Dawud and Higazi (the main recording artists) actually managed at times to offer beautiful performances in spite of the limitations of the medium.
What Abu Dawud does is simply remarkable, in spite of the abrupt end (not to mention Ali Salih's ultra short taqsim on the nay), and should be appreciated as such...

29-05-2006, 20:54
الواحد مش عارف يحزن و لا يفرح من الطريقة إللي سجلت بها الأسطوانات دي ....لو معملوش أرشفة ديجيتال ليها هاتروح زي إللي راح

أستاذي فريد ...صديقي الصدوق إللي كان عندي الأسبوع الماضي جابلي معاه 3 كتب الفهرس المذكور بجزئيه و الجزء الأول من تراثنا الموسيقي -الأدوارو الموشحات (دكتور الحفني و ابراهيم شفيق) هو فيه كام جزء منه؟
مكتبة جديدة فتحت في المعادي ..متعاونين بيدوروا معايا على الكتب المطلوبة (و أسعارها أسعار المعادي برضه:) .
المهم..إنت خلتني أشك لما ذكرت موضوع السين و الميم ده ...روحت طلعت الكتاب أهوه قدامي جزء أول من ال أ- ل ل
و جزء ثاني من الميم إلى الياء
أيضا 1998
مش بس عبد الحي حلمي موجود (أول أسطوانة ليه ..أتاني زماني !! و قائمة أسطواناته طويلة جداً) ده كمان عبد الحميد القضابي له العديد(صفحتين!!!) ... نجيب : عباس البليدي له أسطوانة واحدة ديالوج مع نوال محمد من ألحانه و فيه كمان واحد إسمه عبد الرحمن الجندي ! ده إسم ينفع محافظ مش مطرب
فريد إنت عندك نسخة مضروبة و لا إيه؟

29-05-2006, 22:02
واضح من كلامك إنه فيه طبعتين، طبعة 1990 الناقصة وطبعة 1998 الكاملة فالحمد لله طبعة 98 فيها عبد الحي. يا ترى ممكن تجيب لي الجزء الأولاني ؟ نازل مصر آخر السنة إن شاء الله...

أبو علاء
30-05-2006, 16:29
يستحسن أن تفتح قائمة بطالبي الكتاب يا حاتم، أنا أبضا أرغب في هذه الطّبعة لأنّ معي منها جزءا وحيدا هو الّذي عند فريد، ومؤكّد أنّ النّجيب يريد نسخة أيضا...