PDA

مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : ياظالمنى 7-4-1955 من مسرح حديقة الأزبكية



الشيخ سيد
30-10-2006, 06:20
هذا هو النسجيل - وصلة ثالثة من حفل 7 أبريل من عام 1955 من مسرح الأزبكية والذى أذيع الليلة الماضية بإذاعة الأغانى الوصلة حوالى 80 دقيقة صافيى بدون التعليق

أرجو لكم سماعا طيبا

أبو علاء
30-10-2006, 12:22
شكرا يا رؤوف على السّبق، والحقّ أنّ ما تشكر عليه هو تلك الخدمة الجليلة الّتي قدّمت لنا إذ نبّهتنا إلى إذاعة الأغاني وموعدها اليوميّ مع الحفلات.

luay
30-10-2006, 19:40
Thank you Raouf (and Abu A'laa, since you too were about to post it).
I listened to various parts, but not continuously to the complete recording. I must admit that I'm "torn" between this one and the Damascus version. It seems to me that overall, the first two parts (Ya Dhalimni, and Haram Tehgor W Tetganna) in the Damascus version were more interesting, whereas the last two parts (Atawea' and Haketlak) are more interesting in the Azbakiyya version. But again, I'm saying "overall", because even in the part of Atawea', the Damascus version had amazing parts. I think combining the improvisations in these two recordings gives us one of the best performances in the history of Arabic singing.

It amazes me that Om Kulthoum, in the fifties of her age, gave such a performance in the third song of that night! Her creativity aside, she must have been a very strong woman physically.

I wonder why Qassabji didn't give any taqaseem in the Haketlak part!

Question to the maqam experts: what is the maqam that Om Kulthoum shifts to at minute 34 and 12 seconds in Atawea' and stays at for a few minutes? It's so beautiful. It reminds me of Iraqi music, so does it have anything to do with any of the Iraqi maqams?

Finally, before I started listening, I thought that being only 5 months apart, the improvisations in this version and the Damascus one would be similar. But Om Kulthoum amazed me for the millionth time already: the improvisations between the two versions are almost completely different. Just how creative this lady was is something for the generations to marvel at...

Thanks again.
Luay

أبو علاء
30-10-2006, 20:20
It seems to me that overall, the first two parts (Ya Dhalimni, and Haram Tehgor W Tetganna) in the Damascus version were more interesting, whereas the last two parts (Atawea' and Haketlak) are more interesting in the Azbakiyya version.

Luay, I too have listened on and off but I totally agree on the above.
The maqam shift in the mentioned spot is from bayati (ya shabihi-l-badri wahduh) to saba (yama khabbit fi-l-gawanih). Saba is the main mode in huwa sahih, qalu 'ahabba-l-qassu sallamata, el-qutn, ya lil nugumak shuhud, tishuf 'umuri-w-tithaqqaq and qalbi 'irif ma'na-l-'ashwaq.

fredlag@noos.fr
30-10-2006, 21:07
Abu Ala', it seems you're answering Lu'ay on el amal, whereas he is asking about Ya Zalemni, or am I wrong ?

ovide
30-10-2006, 21:57
إن صدق سمعي

في حوالي 28د و45ث دخلة عجم

ثم 32د و10 ث حجاز كار

في 32 و55 يخيل إلي أن الفرقة كانت تحاول شدها إلى النهاوند لكن أم كلثوم دخلت إلى البيات على ما أحسب، وهو غير واضح تماماً لأن أم كلثوم بقيت في درجاته الثلاث الأولى، لكن يستشف البيات من الأسلوب ومن مصاحبة القانون

ثم في 34د و12ث كان الصبا على ما أشار أبو علاء، وأحسب أنه كان يشير بأمثلة من أغنية أخرى إلي لؤي في ما وضعه بين أقواس.

fredlag@noos.fr
30-10-2006, 22:14
فعلا يا فادي، تسرعت في الرد على لؤي. للعلم، كل ما استمع إلى اسطوانة قديمة، أظل ابحث عن درجات عارضة للعودة إلى ملاحظاتك بخصوص أبي حجاج، وأتخيل أن أبو العلا محمد هو أكثر من يمكن أن نعثر لديه على مثلها

أبو علاء
30-10-2006, 23:37
بلى يا فريد، لم أقصد غير يا ظالمني كما رأى أبو الفداء، وإنّما ذكرت مقطعي الأمل للتّمثيل على المقامين ثمّ ذكرت مجموعة ألحان الصّبا الّتي غنّتها امّ كلثوم ممّا أسعفتني به الذّاكرة علّي أوفّق أن أهدي لؤي إلى النّهج الّذي به تعلّمت المقامات، وأنا كما تعلم جاهل جهول بكلّ ما يساعد في معرفتها من علم الموسيقى.

luay
31-10-2006, 00:23
Thank you all, and you are a brave man, Abu A'laa, for not giving up hope that I'll learn the maqams :-)

Let me ask you a specific question; this may help me more:

when you say that "Ya Leil Nogoumak Shohoud" and "Yama Hatteit Fel-Gawanih" are both on the Saba mode, what is it exactly that I should listen to so that I'll be able to tell that? To me, they sound too different, and I guess what's confusing me is that one is slow (Ya Leil) and the other is faster rhythm (Yama Hatteit). So, is it a specific note that I should look for, or what? Again, I think the difference in "speed" between these two pieces is basically throwing off any similarity for me!

Sorry for not getting it :-)

Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
31-10-2006, 01:03
@ Lu'ay
No, in order to learn maqamat, you must first learn "agnaas" (genres), knowing that maqamat are agnaas piled up on each other. Instead of thinking in terms of a whole song, you must think of mere melodic sentences, that are perfect examples of a genre.
genres are defined by 3 (sikah),4 (most of them) or 5 degrees (nawa athar)
maqams are defined but at least 2 genres, a fundamental degree, and habits of treatment.

maqam saba, for instance, is composed of gins saba + gins higaz, and its fundamental degree is doka, but this is totally unimportant when you start. Your mission, should u accept it, is to spot sentences on genre "saba"

example of sentences on gins "saba" :
- wel-hagr qalu ... wel yom be sana (howwa sahih)
- koll en nas helwin, f-3aneyya helwin ... wenta hena (amal hayati)
- yama yama khabbeet ... gareh (el amal)
- ah, kam akhsha ghadi haadha... lamma ahaaba (aghadan alqaak)
you have to get that the intervals between the degrees used in those sentences are always the same, so you'll begin to recognize gins saba every time you hear it. But it does not mean that the song you hear is in maqam saba, it just means the musical sentence you hear is in genre saba.

exercice : try to quote 3 other famous UK sentences that are saba.

The convention to determine the maqam in a long UK song is to consider the closing sentence of the refrain (madhhab). Generally, it is the same maqam as the opening sentence, but if, for instance, the first sentence is in the higher degrees, you cannot be sure of the maqam until you hear the qafla.

Then you have to constitute a whole stock of sentences that always help you spot the genre. For instance, my "trick" to get sikah was "3ala l-mani 3al mani gatalni we 3awad 3adani", which was my reminder of sikah. my trick to rast was "aruh le-miin" (I mean the opening sentence, not the whole song), or "mala l-kasaat" (same thing), and so on...

In a second phase, you'll learn combining the genres together to be able to spot maqams.

Hattouma
31-10-2006, 01:29
let me encourage you Luay by saying that the first genre i was able to begin to recognize was the Saba .. uinque ! (maskin ya qalby saleh abdel hay) then Rast (dor eshna we shoufna) ...Bayyati and nahawand afterwords and Higaz on and off.. but i still don''t always recognize all the whole time (and i am talking agnas not whole makams ) but one has all time i only started seriously listening to this music about 1.5 year ago !!kattar kheer edunia :) I took much longer time years back with western music when i was trying to learn the guitar hahaha ..
.i think the adwar and muashahat and taqatiq help better in finding those sentences .the long oum kolthoum songs she goes all over the place and one just lets go ...
indeed ..when Fred mentioned his exercise above i could only think of taqatiq ..teshouf oumori we tetaageb ...qalu ahab el-qes sallama ...and that is it for now :)
Fred ,remember to always mention the base maqam please ,lately you have not mentioned it for some files (but mostly Najib comes with the story afterwords ..:)

الشيخ سيد
31-10-2006, 13:22
بمناسبة الحديث عن المقامات حلقة الأمس من برنامج ألحان زمان كانت عن الصبا
هى طبعا حلقة معادة كالعادة

luay
01-11-2006, 05:34
Thank you Fred and all. I think I'm hopeless, but will take the "exam", even if I fail.

How about "Ya Ladhekraka-l-Lati A'ashat Beha Rohee A'la-l-Wahme Seneena" in Qessatu-l-Ams. Is this Saba?

Also, are the "ah ah" in the beginning of the song "A'la A'yni Bakat A'yni, A'la Rohi Ganat Rohi" a Saba?

How about "Ya Habeeban Zorto Yawman Aykaho" in Al-Atlal?

In non-Om Kulthoum songs, is "Skaba Ya Dmoua'-l-E'in Skaba" on Saba as well?

If the answer is NO to all these, please don't waste your time on me :-)
The way I got these answers was simply by trying to sing "Yama Yama Yama Hatteit", and sensing a similar mode in the ones I listed above.

BTW Is there an analogy between maqams and بحور الشعر in Arabic poetry? I'm asking not because that will make things easier for me if such an analogy exists, but because I remember that I never got Bohour Eshea'r either, and in this case, there is a trend in my hopelessness :-)

Thank you all for your help.
Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
01-11-2006, 10:39
1/ I haven't listened to 3ala 3ayni bakat 3ayni in ages, and don't know skaba ya dumu3... So can't answer you on those, but the two other examples you gave are saba, yes ! you got it.
2/ Let's be a little more theoretical about it : the intervals between the 4 degrees are (approximately)
3/4 tone - 3/4 tone - 1/2 tone

whereas in bayyati they are
3/4 tone - 3/4 tone - 1 tone

so the difference between saba and bayyati is only felt with the 4th degree, wich is "higher" in bayyati, and "lower" (by a half-tone) in saba. So you should now concentrate on spotting gins bayyati in short bayyati sentences. Abu Ala' already gave you one, that got modified to saba, in Ya Zalemni.
Although it's not you favorite music, I would suggest the best melodic line to learn bayyati is the dulab el-3awazel bayyati (ah ya ana wesh lel-3awazel 3andena) , that you can hear for instance in qasidat "wa dawahi l-3uyun" by Manyalawi
http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4177&postcount=1
but you can also use some UK lines : the very opening one in Ya Zalemni ;el-moga btegri wara l-moga (faker lamma kont ganbi); the opening line of "el-hobbe keda".
Exercise 2 : Can you quote others ?

3/ Yes, there are at least two similarities between buhur and maqamat. The first obvious one is that they are formulas. With the difference that in buhur there are many exceptions in the ideal formula (zihafat), whereas in maqam, there aren't really any, the formula is quite a fixed one. Second similarity: the fact that some buhur are derived from others, with a shift of one guz', so if you write their formulas in a circle, you see that tawil, madid and basit for instance are all basically the same formula, with a different "beginning", whereas wafir and kamil also are a similar formula, but don't start at the same point.
Same thing with some maqamat : rast suznak, bayyati shuri and sikah huzam, for instance, are basically the same scale (the rast suznak scale), only in bayyati shuri you start one degree up, and in huzam 2 degrees up.

أبو علاء
01-11-2006, 11:04
'ala 'ayni bakat 'ayni is definitely saba (I forgot it when I wrote that list). As for the other one, I don't know it, but I'm sure it is. You've got it, Luay! Let me add that ghali ya buy and zina zina as well as such sections as ya habiban zurtu yawman 'aykahu, kaniti-l-'ayyam bitigri and kanlak ma'ya 'agmal hikaya in 'um kalthum repertory and malish 'amal ya habibi fik and limin bitidhhak ya sif in Farid's one are of the same mode. And I'm sure you can approach the other main maqams (rast, bayati, nahawand, kurd, hiigaz, sikah) in the same way.
Fred, I don't think the theoretical discourse with tones and intervals will work with Luay or any other person who hasn't studied the scale or who doesn't, at least, play an instrument. Even the notions of gins or 'iqd, in my opinion, should be left aside for the time being.

3amr
01-11-2006, 14:16
Skaba Ya Dmoua'-l-E'in Skaba

yes, most definitely saba. (although the G-flat isn't sung as flat as it's written, which means it takes good ears to spot)

luay
01-11-2006, 16:16
Thank you Fred, Abu A'laa, 3amr, and Hatim.
I can't believe I got all of them right!!
Fred: I deal with formulas everyday, so I'm disappointed I'm struggling with these, while I'm good with mathematical ones!
So, it seems to me the Saba maqam can be classified as a "sad" one, since all the examples we quoted here sound "sad" to me. Would this be an appropriate adjective to use with this maqam?
Also, I mentioned the Iraqi music first, which started the whole discussion on this. I was confused. What I had in mind was part of the music that the ney player plays in accompanying the Syrian singer Adeeb Eddayekh. Now I have no doubt the one I had in mind is Saba, since it's almost identical to the way Om Kulthoum sang Atawea' in the part we started talking about.

Now, to the Bayati: you mentioned "El Hobbe Keda" and "Wel Moga Tegre". The first one that came to mind when I tried to sing these was "Lamma-zZaman Elle Ghadarbo" in Gholobt Asaleh. How about the beginning of Dhalamouni-Nnas Dhalamouni"?

BTW Is Qassabji's song for Asmahan "Ana Elle Astahel" on the Saba mode as well?

Thank you all again. This has really been a wonderful exercise. I apologize that it's taking place here and may distract from a discussion of the Ya Dhalimni concert (which is an amazing concert).

Luay

luay
01-11-2006, 16:35
Fred,
I forgot to say that Abu A'laa's point is very valid here: since I don't play any instrument nor have I ever studied music or read a music sheet, I'm afraid going down the theoretical path, with notes and scales, etc., is not going to work with me.
I've always heard people talking about how Arabic music differs from Western music in that it has the 1/4 tone. But I have no idea what that is :-)
So, learning by example, in my case, seems to be the best way.

Thanks.
Luay

zbader
01-11-2006, 16:51
Dear Luay
I have the same situation regarding the knowledge in Arabic Maqam. Never played an instrument; never had a chance to learn maqams in practical way.
One thing to attract your attention to, is that Saba in general is a sad maqam with lesser degree 7ijaz and least is Nahawand. But even the happy maqams like 3ajam or Kurd might be used to compose sad music. A good example of that is "Zuruni Kull Sana" which is 3ajam but sad though; compare it to "tal3a Min Beit Abuha" which is JharKah (derivative of 3ajam) and very happy one.
I am at the very beginning of learning process. It is gonna take me a long time to be able to tell which is which. I still use my inner sense to figure out bayati. It comes to me by itself. It just hits a chord in my feeling (Heart) telling me: I am Bayati. (My favorite among maqams)

Good luck to you and to me too.

fredlag@noos.fr
01-11-2006, 16:55
I would tend to think that a bit of theory can't hurt. Anyways :

- Your happen to be right for lamma z-zaman and zalamuni, but you came to a conclusion too fast, because the sentences you quoted are undecisive when restricting to the words you wrote. See, lamma z-zaman elli ghadar bo is on 3 degrees, so you know it is indeed bayyati on the second sentence, where the 4rth degree is hit. Same thing for zalamuni n-nas, it is clearly bayyati only with "ettahamuni" when she goes uuuuuuuni, hitting the 4th, 3rd, 2nd, first floor. But it COULD have turned out to be saba, and not bayyati, had she not clarified it. See, knowing theoretically that gins bayyati and gins saba only differ in the 4th degree helps after all :-)

- ana lli astahel ? well no, I dont have a record with me, but sounds rast by memory. to be checked. But certainly not saba.

- associating a maqam with a mood (or "ethos") is a classic of musicology, from the Greeks to the Arab musicians. trouble is, they never really agree on one. So yes, saba is often associated with sadness, but it's really a matter of treatment . AL-Banna's 3ala dol yamma yamma 3ala dol is not sad, and UK's "ana habbet fe 3anek ed dunya" isn't either...

Najib
01-11-2006, 18:17
I am on Fred's side that a bit of theory doesn't hurt at all.

With regards to makams association with moods, yes it's really more myth than facts.

For me some Saba songs are intended to be sad, but they make me crack with laughter.

I love especifically this one where in the late eighties every Taxi driver in Lebanon was playing - I think it's by 3adaweeyah. I laugh especifically at this sentence:


رحت الطبيب اشكيله
خبّى دمعو بمنديله

أبو علاء
01-11-2006, 21:09
Yes, 'ana-l-li 'astahil is rast. That was your first error, Luay. As for bayati, as Fred told you, you chose right examples and you have a plethora of them in the repertory of your beloved Farid. Hallit layali, 'ana winta, khalliha 'alallah, 'adhnaytini bi-l-hagr, 'ish 'anta, 'ihlifili ma tighibi
ya 'ini, nura ya nura, wahyat 'iniki....etc
Concerning the recourse to theory, I stick to my position, maybe because I'm not far from you and Zouhair in that I never studied music and I can't really say I play an instrument. I don't feel any pride about it, but I'm somewhat reassured when I'm told that such illustrious musicians as Sunbati or our (Tunisian singer and composer) 'ali Ar-riyahi never did (I mean studying music and reading music sheets).

ovide
01-11-2006, 21:51
i may agree with abou alaa just in the intention of keeping the différence between my positions and Frederic's,
one should keep the traditiion :)!!

but in fact i believe that theory is a necessity, but after that the person become capable of hearing what we are talking about

so 3/4 or 1 1/2 means nothing to someone who cannot feel the différence between bayati and higaz,
but once he became capable,like lou2ay, of hearing the différence between bayati and saba for example, it would be impossible to explain that difference that he is hearing without theory

and abou alaa, didn"t sunbati study and teach at the ma3had at his first arrival to Cairo, that was what i heard even from his son!

i don't know for reading sheet, but reading and writing it is not relevent to the theory of music. that we are discussing

as for the link of maqam and mood, it is a myth of course,
some friend here noted that saba is sad, hijaz is lesser, and lesser of both is nahawand,

in fact in any maqam, when we accuse the 1/2 tone it will give a broken , or sad feeling,
so some time even in Ajam it can be sad, just my showing his kurdi or his jins nahawand that are inclueded in.
and for ex. hiya di hiya farhet el donya is nahawand,
and ya mas3adek sob7eyyah is saba!

please note my poor english, and than forgieve it

luay
03-11-2006, 19:35
[SIZE=1]Yes, 'ana-l-li 'astahil is rast. That was your first error, Luay.

Please don't count Abu A'laa :-) my errors will be uncountable :-)



As for bayati, as Fred told you, you chose right examples and you have a plethora of them in the repertory of your beloved Farid.

I always laugh when you write to me "your beloved Farid" or "your friend Farid"... I can just imagine some agony on your part while mentioning Farid's name :-)

Thank you all for the help, comments, and examples with songs in different maqams; thank you Ovide for the encouragement; and good luck to both of us, Zuheir. I do agree that theory would be best and I don't think Abu A'laa disagrees with this. But the point is that learning the theory now is not something doable (if not too late at all). So, we'd have to go by ear and examples :-)

Thanks again.
Luay

luay
03-11-2006, 20:44
BTW I've finally had time to listen to this version of Ya Dhalimni complete, and I must say that to me there is no question about it: the Damascus 1955 version is nicer.

Luay

luay
04-11-2006, 03:40
See, lamma z-zaman elli ghadar bo is on 3 degrees, so you know it is indeed bayyati on the second sentence, where the 4rth degree is hit.

Fred,
Does this mean that both parts (Lamma-zamman Elle Ghadarbo AND Baa'dak W Kunte Nadim Shakwah) are bayati or the second only is bayati? If the answer is yes to both, are they different types of bayati?
I notice that the first part is sung (by Om Kulthoum) "faster" than the second part. Is "faster" here what you mean by 3 vs. 4 degrees?

Thanks again.
Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
04-11-2006, 11:46
@ Lu'ay : back to theory
No, slow or fast have nothing to do with ajnas and maqamat, slow or fast have to do with time. Only rythm deals with time, not melodic scales.

yes, both lamma z-zaman and ba3dak we kont are bayyati, but they could have been something else, that's my point.
Ajnas and maqamat are scales (échelles). So when I say degrees, I mean musical notes. I'm not using a,b,c,d... or do,ré,mi... because the starting degree can be any of those, what's important is the interval between those degrees, between those notes.

Now, what you have to understand when you hear "lamma z-zaman elli ghadar bo", it is that the same note is used in ma ; maan ; lli. you have to feel that this is the floor of the jins, it is the base, le plancher, qaraar, darajat al-rukuuz, it is the magnetic note that we are attracted to.
la- (of lamma) is one degree UNDER this degree, ok ?
gha- is one degree ABOVE, right ?
dar is two degrees ABOVE, right ?
so, since la- (of initial lamma) is UNDERNEATH the basic note, it is not helping to determine the genre (= gins, jins, or whatever pronunciation you choose). So, in this sentence, we only have, above the rukuuz, 2 more notes. So that means we know only 3 degrees of the genre, lli (1)-gha (2)-dar (3). This is not enough, because bayyati and saba have those in common (distance between 1 and 2 is 3/4 tone, distance between 2 and 3 is also 3/4 tone). So we need a 4th degree to be sure it's bayyati, right? This degree is not given either in the standard melody of "we kont nadim shakwah", it might be only given if she begins to play and reveals to us this 4th degree in a qaflah on shakwaah. But does she really ? I haven't listened. So you have to go further, until you hear that degree.

Now, a little more theory :
the fact that the melody goes on without lifting the ambiguity between saba and bayyati is in itself a good indicator that it is bayyati, because when saba is used, the composer or singer makes it clear immediately. This is an indication that ajnas and maqam are not only scales and degrees, but also "habits of treatment", "uses", "traditions" in the way they're dealt with.

clearer ?

luay
05-11-2006, 16:49
Thank you so much for your help, Fred. But I must admit I don't get it.
So, when you say that "ma", "maan" and "lli" are all on the same note, here's where I get lost: I have no idea about notes, etc., since I've never read a music sheet or played an instrument. I guess that's why I was worried about going down the theory path. When I listen to the three syllables you mentioned, I can't tell that I'm hearing the same note or a different note either. One other thing: somehow, whenever I try to focus on the melody to catch these notes or degrees, etc., the rhythm always "takes over" and gets my attention. So, somehow the rhythm in the song distracts me from focusing on the melody. That's why I was talking about "faster" and "slower". I don't know if this normal of inexperienced people, or that to me, melody and rhythm are so mingled that I can't separate the two.

Best,
Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
10-11-2006, 20:24
@ Lu'ay : separating rythm and mode is an absolute prerequisite. You must be able to decompose any easy sentence you hear note by note. Nobody is asking you to know their names, just singing in your head note by note, degree by degree. Do you never sing ?

@ Abu Ala' : I hadn't even heard this concert. Just did. What a trip ! Between the Piscine Alay version and this one, we are really bestowed with jewels. I used to think I had a pretty good collection of what I thought were "rare" versions of Umm Kulthum songs, but now I realize I knew nothing ! The last months have been absolutely gorgeous in terms of amazing concerts. And I am extremely satisfied with everyone's generosity. It certainly encourages me to share more and more of what I *know* are the jewels I own, i.e. the 78 rpm recordings.

أبو علاء
10-11-2006, 21:23
Fred, I'm extremely pleased to feel that, you too, you are getting something from this forum and not only bringing to it your wealth of knowledge and of 78 rpm records. To be honest, except the few things privately owned by people like Mahmoud, what we're contributing here is in the public domain and, thus, accessible to everybody provided they know about the broadcasting schedules and frequencies and/or webstream addresses. Whereas what you gave us would have been definitely out of reach for us without your sense of sharing and dedication. This reminds me of a hot discussion with our dear friend Zeryab eighteen months ago or so when at a certain point he retorted to me exasperated that I got all my so-called knowledge and my recordings from 'alhan zaman and he was not far from the truth. More recently, another friend who was "criticised" for posting recordings in this forum replied to his own defense that all he did was to "sell them (us) 'idha'at El-'aghani"... So, most of us are actually poor both in terms of material assets (audio files, books, articles...) and intellectual ones (essential knowledge that goes beyond factual one, which is limited to dates, names and a few anecdotes) and the small inputs we're contributing here are the least we can do, not only for people like you, but for the sake of this noble valuable art we claim to cherish and intend to (pre)serve.

Najib
10-11-2006, 22:08
Just to add to everyone's enjoyment, we have now a green light from Magdy to publish Ya Zalemni the Unesco concert.

In this concert Umm Kulthum is very ordinary, maybe she is tired, maybe she was so tired that she gave the green light to Abdo Saleh and Qasabgi to give us one of their best Teksims ever :-)

I can't access it now, but please upload it if you can. It will be the icing on the cake.

luay
10-11-2006, 22:31
If I'm not mistaken, I've heard the UNESCO one, but no longer sure, since several mistakes have happened with the place/time of different concerts. But I don't think I read comments from Fred on the Damascus performance of Ya Dhalimni. I think it's the best, followed by the Azbakiya one. And now I'm not sure which one is the Piscine Alay performance and which is the UNESCO one. As Mahmoud once mentioned, he himself has 26 different versions of this song, so I'm losing track of which is which (not that it matters, but it's important so that when we make a reference to a certain performance by the place and/or time, that we're all on the same page.

Thanks Fred for the advice on separating rhythm from melody. I'll practice :-)

Thanks.
Luay


Just to add to everyone's enjoyment, we have now a green light from Magdy to publish Ya Zalemni the Unesco concert.

In this concert Umm Kulthum is very ordinary, maybe she is tired, maybe she was so tired that she gave the green light to Abdo Saleh and Qasabgi to give us one of their best Teksims ever :-)

I can't access it now, but please upload it if you can. It will be the icing on the cake.

أبو علاء
10-11-2006, 22:42
Luay, when it comes to places and dates of concerts, let alone queens and other dignitaries' names, I'm the worst of you all. Now, I'm covnerting the file Najib is talking about and will denominate it "the Unesco club, Beyrouth" conert pending clarifications/corrections. But, shall I post it here or in a separate thread?

fynyx
11-11-2006, 01:00
يا جماعة أنا أظن اني فهمت من كل اللي كتبه محمود عن يا ظالمني في لبنان إنه ما في شي إسمه حفلة يا ظالمني باليونيسكو و إنما غنت أم كلثوم يا ظالمني في لبنان فقط في بسين عاليه

luay
11-11-2006, 01:51
Abu A'laa,
Except for the dates/places Mahmoud posts, I don't think I know any :-)

As for where to post Ya Dhalimni, there are a few versions of the songs scattered in different threads. Should we collect all of them in one thread and call it "Haflat Ya Dhalimni"? Actually, there are several threads of titles that indicate a specific version of a song, but the thread itself has more than that. I don't know what the best way to organize this stuff or to be most informative. Would a sticky listing the name/place/date help? I'm willing to help with creating such a sticky (I started a list like that before to answer a question by a non-Arabic reading/speaking member --- sorry but forgot who it was).

To answer Sobhi's comment about whether Om Kulthoum sang Ya Dhalimni at the UNESCO or not, here's Mahmoud's answer (he says that she DID sing it at the UNESCO):


سادتي أم كلثوم غنت يا ظالمني لأول مرة في يوم الخميس فبراير 1954 في مسر ح الأزبكية وهذه معلومات غير قابلة للجدل وحتى في الاذاعة المصرية المعروف أنها غنتها لأول مرة في مارس 1954 وهناك لقاء أجرته معي اذاعة صوت العرب في الذكرى ال29 لوفاة كوكب الشرق واختلفت مع المذيع والمعد على الهواء بين هذين الناريخين وأخيرا اقتنعوا برأيي هذا من ناحية ومن ناحية أخرى أن أم كلثوم عندما بدأت رحلاتها الخارجية بعد فترة اللأربعينيات التي ذهبت فيها الى العراق القسم الأول من الأربعينيات ولا يحضرني التاريخ حصريا 1944 أول رحلة كانت الى بيروت في 1954 لتغني في فرح الأمير طلال الى ابنة شكيب أرسلان ولكن الأسرة المالكة في السعودية رفضت للتقاليد المذهبية عندهم وعادت ام كلثوم بدون غناء وذكر جورج ابراهيم الخوري في حلقات (حكايتي مع أم كلثوم )التي نشرها في مجلته =الشبكة=أن أم كلثو م وقتها ومن شدة غيظها مما حصل طلبت الفرقة وغنت فقط يا ظالمني في ساعتين في صالة فندق الكابيتول ولكن اذا عدنا للتاريخ الذي ذكره جورج ابراهيم الخوري نجده خاطئا لأنه ذكره في تاريخ 29 أكتوبر 1954 وأم كلثوم كانت وقتها في مصر وأقامت حفلة في يوم 30 أكتوبر 1954 في نادي الضباط بمناسبة نجاة الرئيس عبد الناصر من محاولة اغتياله في ميدان المنشية بمدينة الاسكندرية وغنت له يومها أغنية =ياجمال يامثال الوطنية لأول مرةب45 د ثم يا ظالمني في 100 دقيقة ثم سهران لوحي في 65دقيقة والثلاث وصلات موجودة عندي طبعا وعليها صوت الأذاعي الكبير حسني الحديدي عم هالة الحديدي مقدمة برنامج ألحان زمان أما أخيرا وليس آخرا أم كلثوم لم تغن ياظالمني في لبنان الا مرة واحدة في اول مرة حضرت فيها الىلبنان وغنت في حفلتين
1= قصر اليونيسكو25 اغسطس 1955
وصلة اولى =جددت حبك ليه=61د
2=رباعيات الخيام=82د
3= نهج البردة 45د
ثم في البيسين عاليه 29 اغسطس 1955
1=رباعيات الخيام =85د
2=ذكريات 83د
3= ياظامني =الشهيرة التي فيها تقاسيم القانون والعود والكمان ومدتها 59 دقيقة طبعا وكل ماذكرت موجود عندي
وحتى لا يلتبس الأمر عليك يا أخي أبو علاء بالنسبة لحفلة العاهلين سارفع لك جزء منها وكيف يذكر المذيع انها غنت في الوصلة الولى ذكريات فكيف نعود الى 1951 وهي غنت ذكريات لول مرة في فبراير 1955 وكلها معلومات موثقة عندي من نفس الحفلات وبصوت المذيعين الذين قدموها ياسيد ي
وشكرا لكم


Luay

أبو علاء
11-11-2006, 02:20
I find it safer to stick to my theory about thes dates/places thing and that is there are often confused/confusing and conflicting information about those concerts. So, we'd rather be cautious and take that kind of information as labels to distinguish the various versions than as certified data. This said, Sobhi is right about this point. In this exctract, Mahmoud confirms the existence of a Unesco club concert, but he denies that it included ya dhalimni.
I like your idea of grouping different versions of each song in one thread in one thread. But, there remains the problem of such threads as your own, which started with Hulm and El-'amal. On the other hand, we might face the difficulty of loosing the thrust of certains discussions by separating and merging different threads from different periods and you know how important those discussions are. The idea of a sort of index sticky could be a better solution. If you already started the job, why not?

fynyx
11-11-2006, 07:42
To answer Sobhi's comment about whether Om Kulthoum sang Ya Dhalimni at the UNESCO or not, here's Mahmoud's answer (he says that she DID sing it at the UNESCO):

Luay
شكرا عزيزي أبو علاء على التوضيح
حبيبي لؤي أرجو أن تعيد قراءة ما كتبه محمود فهو هنا ينفي إمكانية أن تكون أم كلثوم قد غنت يا ظالمني في بيروت؛ اليونيسكو تحديدا سنة 1954 معتمدا على كون التاريخ الذي ذكره جورج الخوري يسبق غناءها في مصر بيوم واحد لمناسبة محاولة اغتيال الرئيس عبد الناصر فلا يمكن أن تكون قد غنت في بيروت يوم 29 أكتوبر 1954 ثم في اليوم التالي 30 أكتوبر 1954 في مصر و قد ناقشته في كون ذلك ممكنا حيث إن تاريخ عرس الأمير طلال كان قبل أسبوع من محاولة الاغتيال أي 22 أكتوبر 1954 و ليس قبل يوم واحد و أن الخوري قد يكون أخطأ التاريخ
ما بين 29من الشهر و 22 منه
و أما عن غنائها يا ظالمني في لبنان سنة 1955 فهو يذكر أنها كانت وصلة ثالثة في حفلة بسين عاليه و ليس في اليونيسكو
و هذا ما ذكره محمود عن الوصلات



قصر اليونيسكو25 اغسطس 1955
وصلة اولى =جددت حبك ليه=61د
2=رباعيات الخيام=82د
3= نهج البردة 45د
ثم في البيسين عاليه 29 اغسطس 1955
1=رباعيات الخيام =85د
2=ذكريات 83د
3= ياظامني =الشهيرة التي فيها تقاسيم القانون والعود والكمان ومدتها 59 دقيقة طبعا وكل ماذكرت موجود عندي
و بإمكانك أن تجد المناقشة هنا
http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?t=578&page=3&highlight=%D9%C7%E1%E3%E4%ED
و سوف تر أن ما ذكره محمود فيه حجة قوية على أنها لم تغن في فرح الأمير طلال و هذا لا نقاش فيه بل هو ثابت و معروف و لكن ما أورده لم أجد فيه ما ينفي أن تكون غنت في غير الفرح ذلك اليوم اللهم إلا ما ذكره مما يعرف عنها من كونها كان لها شروط قاسية للبث على الهواء و لإحياء الحفلات

luay
11-11-2006, 15:28
Thanks Abu A'laa and Sobhi.
Apparently, I no longer comprehend what I read in Arabic :-)
I copied Mahmoud's quote, and I have no idea how I interpreted it as if OK sang the song at the UNESCO.

But anyway, the dates, places and the who's who of Om Kulthoum's concerts are probably of interest to the historians among us, and I'm definitely not one of them.

Best,
Luay