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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : لسّه فاكر : حفلة الأزبكيّه 2 فبراير 1961



أبو علاء
19-11-2006, 16:10
وهو تسجيل آخر من تسجيلات إذاعة الأغاني القاهريّة ؛ وأذكر أنّ محمود كان قد رفع تسجيلا لحفلة أخرى كانت في شهر فبراير 1962، وأترك الحكم للؤي وصبحي ومن معهم، فليس هذا اللّحن من الألحان الّتي تهمّني.


The name of the song and date of the concert are given in the file title

fredlag@noos.fr
19-11-2006, 16:18
من كرهك للجهاركاه
حتما، سأتجنب رفع تسجيل أبي حجاج لدور الفؤاد أمره عجيب حفاظا على سلامة ودانك

:D

أبو علاء
19-11-2006, 16:34
أعترف أنّ أقلّ ما يقال إنّي لست مولعا بالجهاركاه، ولكن هل يجوز لك رجمي بعد أن "اعترفتَ" بأنّك لا تحبّ السّنباطي وألحانه طرّا ؟:) أمّا فؤادي أمره عجيب فقد سبقت إلى رفعه منذ زمن، وهو راست كردان وليس جهاركاه.

fredlag@noos.fr
19-11-2006, 16:48
oups, that's right. But if the original record seems better than mine, the sound file is bad. I will have to change that.
Ok, what can I falsely threaten to withhold so that you can admit being interested in gerka ?

ummm...

Hilmi in "shuf hali ya hatek hali" ?
Hilmi in "El hobb sabahni 3adam" ?
Safti in "Bed3 el-habibi kollo yetreb" ?

أبو علاء
19-11-2006, 16:52
Well, Fred, you know there are exceptions to every rule. Bid'i-l-habib I have and like enough, as well as ya badri timmi-l-gibin. By the way, you didn't tell me how you appreciated Fashni's malika-l-mulk

luay
19-11-2006, 17:52
Thank you Abu A'laa.
I too, don't consider this song one of my favorites. I like the part of Yama Helyetlak Ahat Albi.
Your comment about Fred not liking Sunbati and his compositions: was that a joke or is it really that Fred doesn't like Sunbati's compositions???????? This would be an interesting discussion/debate :-) I know liking or disliking something is not open for debate, since it's a personal matter, but I'd be interested in hearing why someone wouldn't like Sunbati's compositions (Gaddedte Hobbak Leh, Gholobt Asaleh, Hallet Layali-l-Amar, Ya Toul A'dhabi, Yalli Kan Yeshgeek Aneeni,...).

Thanks again.
Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
19-11-2006, 22:39
@ Lu'ay : well, i'm not a huge fan of Sunbati, but there are songs by Sunbati that I love.
Let's try developping : To me, Sunbati is a step further than Zakariyya in breaking with the takht aesthetics. his sentences are almost never as occidentalized as Qasabgi's, but Sunbati *needs* an orchestra for his music. So this is the first reason. The second is that he is capable of the best and the worst, the worst being for me his tendency to heaviness, to fakhama rannana. Sunbati can be boring. I discovered "Nahg al-Burda" was a great song when I heard this version UK extemporises on "hatta balaghta sama'an". But even in this amazing version, the beginning is boring, which is a shame considering the excellence of Shawqi's mu3arada of Busiri. To think he couldn't imagine a good musical sentence for "ya na3es al-tarfi la dhuqta l-hawa abadan / ashrata mudnaka fi hifzi l-hawa fa-nami", which is in my opinion a verse absolutely as good as any medieval one by the fu7ul al-shu3ara' , a pure jewel, well it enrages me, because let's face it, who remembers the musical sentence ? He botched the job, the way I feel it. Same applies to "araka 3asiyya d-dam3", the 64 version is ridiculous compared with Saleh 4abd al-Hayy's, for instance, a really baaaaaaaaad job. But he can be a genius at times : Ya zalemni is amazing, hallet layali l-qamar, and even the instrumental opening of el-qalb ye3shaq is a jewel of pop music. What I don't like is the conceited, bombastic, pretentious Sunbati. But I really adore some of his work.

@ Abu Ala' :
I9 loved it, but when hearing it felt it was more gaharkah than 3agam. Gotta listen to it again to make up my mind.

luay
19-11-2006, 23:06
Thanks Fred for your elaboration. Again, liking and disliking music (or anything else for that matter) stem from a personal taste, so thanks for discussing your views why like/dislike
Sunbati's music. In a video clip that Najib posted (Sunbati's interview in the Kuwaiti TV), he gets asked about the religious songs Nahj-el-Borda, Wulida-l-Huda,... He says that to him these are like the pyramids! This means he was very proud of them. I personally love his work in the religious (despite my views about religion) and patriotic (despite similar views about nationalism) songs. But in the "patriotic songs" category, I don't mean the ones for Nasser (Ya Gamal Ya Mthal-el-Wattaneyya, and all that), but rather the poems such as Waqafa-l-Khalqu, Be-Abee Wa Rohee (this is one of my most favorite), Misru-Llatee Fee Khatery,...

As for Araka A'seyya-Ddama'e, I agree the one from the 20's is much nicer (you wrote Saleh Abdel-Hayy; did you mean A'bdo-l-Hamuli?). I wish we could hear Zakariyya's version, but somehow, Zakariyya and classical poems don't mix well in my mind :-)
If I'm not mistaken, I once read Abu A'laa's comment about Athulathiyya-l-Muqqaddasa. It definitely wasn't a positive comment :-) I like this one, though. Do you find it boring?

I swear that I'm not going to say the following for the sake of disagreeing, but the two lines I like the most from Nahj-el-borda (the music, that is) are: Ya Naa'esa-Ttarfe and Gobta-Ssamawate Aw Ma Fawqahonna... But again, I might be liking Om Kulthoum's "version" (which we now know is the one from Damascus in 1955).

Finally, if you were asked to rank the following composers from top to bottom, twice, once based on what you like and once based on the quality of their music (the two don't have to be the same; right), how would you rank them: Farid El Atrash, Qassabji, Sunbati, Wahab, and Zakariyya (I ordered them alphabetically, so that my writing doesn't reflect my biases :-) ?

Thanks again.
Luay

Hattouma
20-11-2006, 18:06
من كرهك للجهاركاه
حتما، سأتجنب رفع تسجيل أبي حجاج لدور الفؤاد أمره عجيب حفاظا على سلامة ودانك

:D

Fred ..mind Abu Alaa's taste ,it is the extreme here ! Egyptians seems to me cannot live without gerkaa :)

أبو علاء
26-11-2006, 00:03
If I'm not mistaken, I once read Abu A'laa's comment about Athulathiyya-l-Muqqaddasa. It definitely wasn't a positive comment :-)


You're right, Luay, I don't like Ath-thulatiya and I think it's precisley one of those pompous things Fred is talking of. Actually, such pompousness resides here in that sort of "special effects" introduced by Sunbati himself or his arranger (in my opinion his last great work for 'um kalthum was 'aqbala-l-layl). I can't agree with Fred's general statement, of course. But, I have my own view on Sunbati.
To me, his musical genius is beyond questioning. He left to us such a huge number of masterpieces, not only amongst 'um kalthum's repertory, but in so many others: Salih 'abdi-l-hay, Muhammad 'abdi-l-muttalib, Fathiya 'ahmad, Nagat 'ali, 'asmahan, Layla Murad, Warda, Huda Sultan...etc. I'm even tempted to add that he was almost unique in offering good compositions to so many singers of various "classes" despite his "full time" work with 'um kalthum. Qasabgi with his enigma of "'um kalthum complex" fell far short from such extensive high quality presence in the artistic scene. Zakariya, instead, could easily be credited with comparable credentials. But, he came to the scene much earlier than both Sunbati and Qasabgi and he was left totally "free" from any standing commitment for the last fifteen years of his life or so following his dispute with 'um kalthum...
Now, "the problem" with Sunbati, in my view, was the very key to his success. He stood midway between two extremes: that of the shear artist with both its manifestations - the mental one examplified by Qasabgi and the sentimental one illustrated by Zakariya - and the one of the merchant personified by 'abdi-l-wahab. Sunbati, was a good synthesis (a successfull one on both sides) of those two socio-cultural characters and the musical conception offered by their representatives. This should explain the lightheartedness with which he hastily "buried" such compositions as 'ata'aggalu-l-'umr, kayfa marrat 'ala hawaki-l-qulubu or fakir... A remarkable characteistic distinguished him among all the composers (and some lyricists) who accompanied 'um kalthum during her career - his total detachment (remember, Luay, that remark of yours concerning his deliberate choice not to assist to the concerts where his songs were performed!). This explains in my view his alternating pieces of genius such as the ones we enumerated with others, which are barely anything more well crafted mainstream music produces like the one here and so many others I mentioned in the past. His combining of genuine talent with pragmatism is besides the only convincing explanation I can think of to understand the peculiar economy of his musical production and that typical tendancy he had to create melodic patterns or canvasses and exploit them to the fullest extent possible through several replicas for each of such patterns. Just think of that typical Sunbati combination kurd ---- rast ---- gaharkah reproduced ad nauseam through ya dhalimni, hagartak, ya nasisni, 'araka 'asiya-d-dam'i, thawratu-sh-shakk... (his mania of what the French call du réchauffé didn't leave him in the last years of his life as shown through 'aqbala-l-layl, min 'agli 'aynayk, 'ashwaq, wa-ltaqayna, la taqulli ya habibi dha'a hubbi min yadi...)

luay
26-11-2006, 02:25
Thanks Abu A'laa for this enlightening analysis. I'd like to comment on a few points you made.

1. Regarding Qassabji, in my humble musically-uneducated opinion, his biggest mistake is that he demonstrated complete dependence on Om Kulthoum from the beginning, and accepted to play the oud in her takht. Once Om Kulthoum stopped their real collaboration after Raqq El Habib, that killed his creativity. But in saying that Sunbati was different in that he gave other singers songs of high caliber, I have a "slight huge" disagreement (what an oxymoron :-)
and that is Asmahan. Qassabji composed for Asmahan at the same time he was making Ya Albi Bokra-Ssafar, Raqq El Habib, etc. for Om Kulthoum. And I don't think the songs he composed for Asmahan are of low caliber. In my opinion, they are genuine masterpieces (Hal Tayyama-l-Banu, Asqiniha, Ana-Lli Astahel, Layta Lelbarraqi A'ynan,...)
Zakariyya on the other hand clearly had a much stronger personality than Qassabji, and when it was time, he said NO to Om Kulthoum! I think Sunbati's and Zakariyya's lack of sole dependence on Om Kulthoum's voice enabled them to "last" longer.

2. Going back to Sunbati himself, I do agree that Athulathiya is "theatrical", so to speak, but I found beautiful musical phrases in it (Men Mahbete-l-Israa'i Fel Masgede...). But we can't say that Sunbati kept the same standards until the end. In the 40's he gave the jewels, in the 50's he gave jewels (Gaddedte Hobbak Leh, e.g.) and stuff lighter than that (Dhikrayat), in the 60's he went much lighter even (except for Al Atlal; I know you're not crazy about this one either, but we can't put it in the same league with the other 60's songs he composed, such as El Hobbe Kedah and La Ya Habeebi), then in the 70's he gave the lightest probably. So, when I say I like Athulathiyya, we're talking about a song at the time of El Hobbe Kolloh, Leilet Hobb, and W Daret El Ayyam. It's really the time of "theatrics" in music, and it seems even Sunbati himself couldn't help but join the crowd. But I personally refuse to put him or his songs, even in the 70's, with jokes of the caliber of El Hobbe Kolloh or Leilet Hobb :-)

In other words, I hold Sunbati's works (any artist's work) to different standards in different times. I can't expect a Gholobt Asaleh or El Awwela Fel Gharam in 1972, so Athulathiya, for example, is the lesser of the evils that came in that period.

To me, the main observation in your analysis, and with which I completely agree, is that Sunbati was midway between Qassabji/Zakariyya on the one hand and Wahab on the other. But I'd still put him closer to the former than the latter.

Finally, going back to the discussion with Fred, and despite our agreement that liking/disliking is something of a personal taste, I just found it surprising that one of the parts that I like most of Nahj Al Burda (Ya Naa'esa-Ttarfe La Thoqta-l-Hawa Abadan) is found to be the most boring by Fred! I wouldn't be surprise to disagree on Athulathiya or El Hobbe Keda, but I don't think Sunbati was "pompous" or went for commercial stuff at the time of Nahj El Borda.

Thanks again for the nice discourse.
Luay

alffy74
14-02-2008, 22:02
Oh my...what a nice discussion/debate. I feel a bit hesitant to write anything cause I'm impressed by your knowledge, especially Fred and Abu Ala'. I like Luay's analysis because it is the closest to what I would have written, and I have no intention in repeating what has been said. I just want to say a few things based on my knowledge of Umm Kulthum's songs (although I know that the legacy of these 3 composers is far from being limited to Umm Kulthum; the truth is that their work with UK is better known than their work with other artists).
Kasabgi had the most intricate musical mind among all composers and he definitely composed in advance of his generation, and this is probably why his work was, and still is, not digested by many, even Umm herself. I believe she was worried that his compositions would not be accepted by her audience if he continued to evolve at such a pace. With the death of Asmahan and the absence of a giant voice other than Umm's, his creativity stalled, mainly because he simply couldn't take steps backward.
Zakariyya was too emotional. Although he stood up to Umm, he couldn't find an alternative voice who can give his compositions their true dimension. Umm and Zakariyya complement each other so well: he gives her the freedom to improvise and she reveals his genius. El Awwila fil gharam is the ultimate example of this complementarity.
I'm afraid I can't add much to Abu Ala' and Luay's analyses of Sumbati, except to say that if I want to rank my favorite Arabic melodic lines, the top 10 would all come from Sumbati's compositions, whether for Umm, other singers or himself. A few examples are: the intro of Ruba3iyat el Khayam, the musical prelude to the last paragraph of Arou7 le meen, the musical preludes to "yalli hawak fil fouad" (Gaddet Hobbak), "kan fagran bassiman" (Dhikrayat), "w lamma al'ak areeb menni" (dalili ihtar), "ayna min aayni habibon (Al Atlal), "astashifou el wagda fi sawtoka ahat" (Min agl 'aynayk), "youkazzibo fika koul annassi qalbi" (Thawrat eshak), the music of "wali bayna eddoulou'i damon wa lahmon..." (Salo Qalbi), "ya na'essa etarfi la dhouqta el hawa.." (sorry Fred, it is one of my favorites) and "salahou amrika lil akhlaqi marge'ouhou..." (Nahg el Borda), "afdal a'iddi el layali, wa oul woussalak areeb" (Hallet layali el amar), "nam ya habib errouh elleyl bitoulou sahran aaleik" (ennoum yida3eb), "roudda ka'ssi aan fami ya ayouhs essaqi wa daani" and "ahi min qalbi w ma yaatadouhou min dhikrayati" (Fagr), and "w idha bi qad khalat minka yaqini, w intawa ma kan min safwi el layali" (Ashwaq)...
Well, I seem to have provided too many examples, but as soon as I started writing, many songs came to my mind. If I want to summarize Sumbati, I would say "youtribouni min aamaqi". So, when Umm Kulthum sings Sumbati's compositions, it's a synergistic effect on me.

SALAM!

Alfred