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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : UM in Aley 2: Ya Zalemni



Burhan
12-01-2007, 08:04
يا ظالمني
عاليه، لبنان
29-8-1955

72 دقيقة

اداء خارق وفريد وجمهور متعطش

لاحظوا المقاطع التالية

حرام تهجر : الدقيقة 9:30 الى 15:18
صبرت سنين: 15:20 الى 18:28 و ايضاً 21:22
عشان تعطف: 19:48 - 21:21 و 22:53 الى 24:01
اطاوع في هواك:25:00 و 29:15 الى 36:00 وفي الملف الثاني من 0:39 - 6:45 و 8:00 الى 13:00
حكيتلك: 15:18 - 19:00 في الملف الثاني
ارتجالات القانون والعود والكمان (غير الموجود في نسخة الاونيسكو) : 19:01 الى 24:55

رجاءً تعليقاتكم

مهداة الى علي يموت و ذكرى صديقه الشاعر امين اللادقي

لسبب أجهله لم أوفّق في رفع الملفّ ها هنا، لذلك رفعته ضمن تعليقي أدناه مع وضع رابط هنا. أبو علاء

يا ظالمني بيسين عاليه 29.8.1955 (http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5262&d=1168702261)

أبو علاء
12-01-2007, 14:16
ألف شكر يا برهان على هذا التّسجيل الجديد ليا ظالمني (أعتقد أنّه لم يجتمع لدينا عدد من التّسجيلات لنفس الأغنية مثلما اجتمع لدينا من تسجيلات يا ظالمني)، ولئن كنت لم أستمع للتّسجيل كاملا إلاّ أنّي استمعت إلى التّقاسيم، وهي بديعة خصوصا منها تقسيم القانون والعود، كما أنّ التّسجيل ذو جودة طيّبة ؛ بقي أنّي لست متأكّدا من عدم سماع هذا التّسجيل في الماضي بين التّسجيلات العديدة الّتي وصلتنا ولو كان تحت اسم (مكان، تاريخ) مختلف، ولا شكّ أنّ لؤي هو خير من يمكنه إفادتنا في هذا الصّدد.
برهان، هل اطّلعت على رسالتي الخاصّة هذا الصّباح ؟

luay
12-01-2007, 15:26
Thanks Burhan.
And now to answer Abu A'laa's question.
The first thing I did when I heard the first few minutes of Burhan's version, was go back to
the files on my computer and listen to the versions of Ya Dhalimni I have. And I do have this
one (it's in real audio format, partitioned into 6 parts, and the file information says that it was
downloaded around May 27, 2006). I went back to the list of Om Kulthoum's songs on the forum, I couldn't find it. But this is not making much sense to me, simply because all recordings I have are either from zamanalwasl or from zeryab, but I am 99.99% sure I didn't download a version of Ya Dhalimni from Zeryab in 2006 (by the way, the file name says that it's Ya Dhalimni in Lebanon, from 1955). Since it sounds familiar to Abu A'laa as well, he has it for sure. So, my feeling is that this concert is probably somewhere on the forum, but we missed it in the list (can it be that it's under the "Egyptian" section, and wasn't moved to OK's section?)
I'd recommend that we do a search, and in case we find it, to compare Burhan's version to that one, before we delete one of the two.

[Abu A'laa: I received your email yesterday with the attachment; I haven't been able to check --- will do that today.]

Thanks Burhan and Abu A'laa.
Luay

Najib
12-01-2007, 15:38
I checked the teksims and they're different than the Unesco one that I uploaded to Zeryab a long time ago.

Thanks a lot Burhan!

luay
12-01-2007, 16:01
Hi Najib,
Yes, Mahmoud once mentioned that OK sang Ya Dhalimni twice in Lebanon: once in the UNESCO hall, and once in Aley.

[Correction: I misquoted Mahmoud on this one. Mahmoud actually had written that Om Kulthoum sang Ya Dhalimni only
once in Lebanon. Thanks to Sobhi for pointing this out.]

Luay


I checked the teksims and they're different than the Unesco one that I uploaded to Zeryab a long time ago.

Thanks a lot Burhan!

أبو علاء
13-01-2007, 15:21
First of all, to those who don't see Burhan's files anymore, don't worry. I've assembled the three of them in a single file and I'm in the process of uploading it. By the way, Burhan and all the "uploaders", please, when you split up a recording into pieces, don't make the various parts in different bitrates! This further complicates the assembly work and makes it even more time consuming (the same occured with 'abu-l-ghayth 'ana fi-ntidharak files).
Luay, this recording has definitely not been uploaded in zamanalwasl (I made every possible check). Yet, I did find a copy thereof myself in my own library with the same info - Piscine 'alye concert. It comes probably from Zeryab (I haven't checked). But, that copy is shorter than this one (59 min vs 73 min).
Now, first of all, the sound quality here is not only decent. It's simply excellent (I based my early on the speaker's introduction, which was of a much lower quality than the rest of the recording!). And second, I've just started listening to the whole recording after having finished all the required work and the artistic quality of this concert seems to be comparable to the Damascus one. The improvisation in haram tuhgur wi tistanna in rast mode beyong the basic kurd mode is quite amazing and the whole atmosphere and 'um kalthum's mood are fantastic.

luay
13-01-2007, 15:50
Thanks Abu A'laa.
Unfortunately, I haven't had much time in the last few weeks to listen (I haven't listened to Zakariyya's two compositions, for example, and I can't wait to do so).
Om Kulthoum must have loved Ya Dhalimni; we've already listened to several magnificent performances of this song. I think part of it is that the song itself has those sentences that excite and arouse the audience: "Sobort Sneen", "Weteghdab Lamma Ollak Yom Ya Dhalimni", etc. So, while its artistic value is less than a song like Yalli Kan Yeshgeek Aneeny, it contained sentences for "audience arousal".

BTW I don't know the Kurd maqam, but I recall reading somewhere that Ya Dhalimni is on the Kurd maqam. Also, I recall reading that Qassabji's monologue Leh Ya Zaman is also on the Kurd maqam (I don't remember my sources though). Is this correct? If so, is the kurd the maqam on which she sings the very first words (e.g., the way she opens with "Ya Dhalimni" and the way she opens with "Leh Ya Zaman")?

Thanks again Abu A'laa, and repeated thanks to Burhan.
Luay

أبو علاء
13-01-2007, 16:02
Correct. Kurd is also the basic maqam of 'adi-r-rabi'. Back to this recording. You will love it, I'm sure. although the suburti snin part in Damascus concert remains unique, I think we have here the best 'atawi' fi hawak qalbi. Hakitlak is also great and Qasabgi's solo is out of this world

الشيخ سيد
13-01-2007, 16:30
And I do have this
one (it's in real audio format, partitioned into 6 parts, and the file information says that it was
downloaded around May 27, 2006).



شكرا برهان

وبالنسبة لتعليق لوْى
أنا أيضا عندى هذه الأجزاء الستة وأعتقد أن أخونا محمود الشامى قد رفعهم وقام أبو علاء بعد ذلك بتحويلهم إالى ملف واحد وحذف الأجزاء الستة

luay
13-01-2007, 17:04
Correct. Kurd is also the basic maqam of 'adi-r-rabi'. Back to this recording. You will love it, I'm sure. although the suburti snin part in Damascus concert remains unique, I think we have here the best 'atawi' fi hawak qalbi. Hakitlak is also great and Qasabgi's solo is out of this world

Thanks Abu A'laa.
Can't wait to listen.
So, probably we now have the best Suburti Snin in Damascus, the best Atawea' in Beirout, and the best Haketlak in Egypt (the long version from Azbakiyya that you uploaded; that's the only version I know of where she improvises in the part of Wu-ban Lennas Dana Rohi --- in the rest, she just improvises on the "Haketlak" word, with taqaseem). So, the best performance of this song is a multi-country one :-)

As for the taqaseem, it would be nice to read a comparison among the oud taqaseem in all of them, as well as the qanun taqaseem in all of them.


Luay

أبو علاء
13-01-2007, 22:45
Om Kulthoum must have loved Ya Dhalimni; we've already listened to several magnificent performances of this song. I think part of it is that the song itself has those sentences that excite and arouse the audience: "Sobort Sneen", "Weteghdab Lamma Ollak Yom Ya Dhalimni", etc. So, while its artistic value is less than a song like Yalli Kan Yeshgeek Aneeny, it contained sentences for "audience arousal". .
Luay

هذه النّقطة الّتي أثارها لؤي هنا عن شغف أمّ كلثوم بألحان معيّنة وإكثارها من ترديدها والإبداع فيها رغم أنّ قيمتها الفنّيّة متوسّطة أو هي على الأقلّ لا تصل إلى قيمة ألحان أخرى كانت أقلّ حظّا من اهتمام كلثوم وبالتّالي من جمهورها ملاحظة مهمّة، ولعمري إنّ المرء ليقف حائرا محسورا حينما يرى ما كان مصير ألحان أخرى بدءا من ألحان السّنباطي "المغمورة" مثل أتعجّل العمر ابتغاء لقائها أو كيف مرّت على هواك القلوب ووصولا إلى درّة القصبجي يا قلبي بكره السّفر، ناهيكم عن ألحان زكريا الّتي لم تصلنا بصوت السّيّدة مطلقا مثل اللّحنين اللّذين اكتشفناهما مؤخّرا من خلال صوت صاحبهما زكريا في آخر أيّام حياته ؛ ومعنى هذا أنّ المطربين العظام يعيدون خلق اللّحن حين غنائه ويقدّرون مصيره مثلما يقدّره مبدعه الأصليّ أو فوق ذلك، وهو ما أدركه يوسف المنيلاوي حين كان يطلب مبلغ مائة جنيه لقاء غنائه دورا واحدا هو دور البلبل جاني وقال لي فكتب لذلك اللّحن وصاحبه إبراهيم القبّاني، على الأقلّ في حياة أبي حجّاج، ما لم تنله ألحان الحامولي ومحمّد عثمان وداود حسني، ولقد كنّا رأينا من خلال اسطوانة محمّد سالم العجوز لدور يا حليوه يا مسلّيني كيف أخرج ذلك الشّيخ العبقريّ بلحن ما كان امرئ منّا ليتوقّع منه أيّ خير (فنّيّ) بعدما قتله صباح فخري وسيّد مكّاوي ابتذالا، كيف أخرجه إلى حيّز الإبداع ورقى به أرقى مراتب الطّرب.
إلاّ أنّ من الألجان أيضا ما تكون عبقريّته فيه فتفرض نفسها في ذاكرة المستمع حتّى وإن قتّر المطرب في غنائها تقتيرا ولم يتكرّم بالشّدو بها وتسجيلها سوى مرّة يتيمة أو مرّتين، ولنا على ذلك أمثلة ثلاثة باهرة هي حلم والأوّله في الغرام وفاكر لمّا كنت جنبي.

luay
14-01-2007, 15:38
I agree Abu A'laa.
Another song whose lack of multiple recordings surprises me a lot is Gholobt Asaleh!!! It was until recently that we got to hear another version of it, and that's it! It seems to me to have all
the factors that would make Om Kulthoum sing it several times, but I wonder what
happened.
But an important point that we should consider is why we did hear one or two version of some songs and 26 of another. Was it because Om Kulthoum really sang some once or twice
and the other 26, or because that's the number of recordings that reached us, despite Om Kulthoum's singing them more than that! I don't know the answer to this question, nor do I have the abilities/material to investigate it, but I can't believe Om Kulthoum sang Gholobt Asaleh only twice, or Hallet Layali-l-Amar once!
Now, we have an example from later years that we can be confident of: one member who seems to be knowledgable in Om Kulthoum-ology said that she sang Thawrat Asshak only once. Now, this song was sung at the time of better recordings, a radio station, etc. So, if that's the case, we'd be sure of. As for the earlier recordings, I don't think the sources would be as reliabale, especially in light of the change in regime from the monarchy to "something different" in 1952. We've already seen examples of how the media tried to change the facts about pre-1952-revolution songs (you mentioned in another post the information that the broadcaster gave about Ya Leilte-l-Eid!!).
So, given the state of recordings in the 30's and 40's, coupled with the curtains that different sides drew on the pre-revolution period, I wonder if we'll be able to tell the
actual reasons of why certain songs reached us in 26 recordings while others reaches us
in single copies. But still, despite all that, I'm sure Om Kulthoum's likings had something to do with that, because it
can't be that Om Kulthoum for example sang Gholobt Asaleh 26 times as well, and we didn't get 24 of them, whereas
she sang Ya Dhalimni 26 and we received all of them! So, it may be a mix of the two: her likings and the recording industry.

Luay

fynyx
14-01-2007, 17:14
أولا الشكر للأخ برهان على هذه التحفة و للجميع على التحليلات الممتعة



Thanks Burhan.
And now to answer Abu A'laa's question.
The first thing I did when I heard the first few minutes of Burhan's version, was go back to
the files on my computer and listen to the versions of Ya Dhalimni I have. And I do have this
one (it's in real audio format, partitioned into 6 parts, and the file information says that it was
downloaded around May 27, 2006). I went back to the list of Om Kulthoum's songs on the forum, I couldn't find it. But this is not making much sense to me, simply because all recordings I have are either from zamanalwasl or from zeryab, but I am 99.99% sure I didn't download a version of Ya Dhalimni from Zeryab in 2006 (by the way, the file name says that it's Ya Dhalimni in Lebanon, from 1955). Since it sounds familiar to Abu A'laa as well, he has it for sure. So, my feeling is that this concert is probably somewhere on the forum, but we missed it in the list (can it be that it's under the "Egyptian" section, and wasn't moved to OK's section?)
I'd recommend that we do a search, and in case we find it, to compare Burhan's version to that one, before we delete one of the two.

[Abu A'laa: I received your email yesterday with the attachment; I haven't been able to check --- will do that today.]

Thanks Burhan and Abu A'laa.
Luayبخصوص الملف فقد سبق و سمعناه و أنزلناه من زرياب حيث رفعه الأخ العزيز الغالي علينا جميعا محمود-جرت عادتي أن أحفظ الملفات حسب مصادرها- مجزءا إلى ملفات ستة و لكنه أقصر مدة كما أشار العزيز أبو علاء و ها هو الرابط
http://www.zeryab.org/zeryab/showthread.php?t=18273&highlight=%D9%C7%E1%E3%E4%ED




Hi Najib,
Yes, Mahmoud once mentioned that OK sang Ya Dhalimni twice in Lebanon: once in the UNESCO hall, and once in Aley.

Luayمرة أخرى يا جماعة-و رغم أني أعرف أن هذا ليس بالمهم لكم كثيرا و لكن للأمانة العلمية:) - محمود ذكر أن أم كلثوم لم تغن أبدا هذه الأغنية في اليونيسكو و إنما ما اشتهر بكونه حفل اليونيسكو هو هذا أي حفل بسين عاليه أما المرة الثانية و التي يعتبر محمود أنها غير موجودة فهي ما ذكره الخوري من كونها غنت في الكابيتول بعد أن ألغي غناؤها في حفل زفاف الأمير طلال
و شكرا لكم جميعا

luay
14-01-2007, 18:54
مرة أخرى يا جماعة-و رغم أني أعرف أن هذا ليس بالمهم لكم كثيرا و لكن للأمانة العلمية:) - محمود ذكر أن أم كلثوم لم تغن أبدا هذه الأغنية في اليونيسكو و إنما ما اشتهر بكونه حفل اليونيسكو هو هذا أي حفل بسين عاليه أما المرة الثانية و التي يعتبر محمود أنها غير موجودة فهي ما ذكره الخوري من كونها غنت في الكابيتول بعد أن ألغي غناؤها في حفل زفاف الأمير طلال
و شكرا لكم جميعا

Thanks for the clarification/reminder Sobhi. To be honest with you, as much as I love Om Kulthoum's voice and performance, I never bothered that much with details about the
when/who/where/how/what of her performances. All that matters to me is whether the performance is nice or not. Whether the monarchies of all Arab countries were in the attendance, or whether it was in a palace or a hut, that's secondary information.

But as you said, for "scientific authentication", I'll try to remember that she didn't sing it in the UNESCO Hall (and we need Najib to remember that, because he always mentions it, and I agree with him... so, he's misleading me :-)

Best,
Luay

أبو علاء
14-01-2007, 19:19
But as you said, for "scientific authentication", I'll try to remember that she didn't sing it in the UNESCO Hall (and we need Najib to remember that, because he always mentions it, and I agree with him... so, he's misleading me :-)
Luay


My name is to be added to the list of culprits. In any case, we have a bigger problem: Najib provided us with another recording definitely different from this one labelled as the UNESCO recording. If this label is wrong, Mahmoud or whoever has to give us the correct label for it

luay
14-01-2007, 19:49
My name is to be added to the list of culprits. In any case, we have a bigger problem: Najib provided us with another recording definitely different from this one labelled as the UNESCO recording. If this label is wrong, Mahmoud or whoever has to give us the correct label for it

And also the one from Mr. Ashmawy. Mahmoud apparently disagrees that this was in Lebanon, but as far as I recall, Mahmoud never gave his side of the story on this one either, stopping only at disagreeing with Mr. Ashmawy.

Luay

أبو علاء
14-01-2007, 20:37
That was the one I meant Luay. But, you know Mahmoud. He has his own logics.:)

luay
14-01-2007, 22:04
That was the one I meant Luay. But, you know Mahmoud. He has his own logics.:)

Thanks for pointing this out, Abu A'laa. I got confused because I have in mind two things "Unesco Hall" and "Ashmawy's version", and didn't remember they were the same.

Luay

fynyx
15-01-2007, 03:38
Gentlemen
I'm not arguing here the idea itself or defending Mahmood's point of view but what I wanted to correct was this:

Hi Najib,
Yes, Mahmoud once mentioned that OK sang Ya Dhalimni twice in Lebanon: once in the UNESCO hall, and once in Aley.

Luay
Luay refered to Mahmood that he said: OK sang this song twice in Lebanon one of them in UNESCO which is not correct because he didn't say it & not because it didn't happen.

On the other hand I'm not convinced about many judgments he gave for example he disclaimed that OK sang this song in Capitol-Beirut when she was prevented of singing in emir Talal's wedding & his idea was based mainly on a wrong date (29 October) given by Al-Khouri because the second day she was in Cairo celebrating the riddance of Jamal. While this could be just a date mistake from Al- Khouri since the wedding was 22 of October & not 29, so disclaiming just because of the date is not enough. It's clear that OK had a complete week to return to Cairo after singing in Capitol.
I know that & I know he has his own logic like Abu Alaa' said & sometimes he just disagrees with some ideas without any clarification but all this doesn't mean he's not the most expert in OK songs & concerts historical details

luay
15-01-2007, 05:11
Thanks Sobhi. I didn't notice that I misquoted Mahmoud. I've added a correction in my original post in which I made the wrong remark.
As for expertise, etc., I personally didn't make any comment for or against Mahmoud's expertise in this thread. All I wrote is that his argument regarding Mr. Ashmawy's version
of Ya Dhalimni was incomplete. He disagreed that it was in Lebanon, but then he did not
give his version of the story. This incompleteness or inconclusiveness is what Abu A'laa referred to when he mentioned "Mahmoud's logic", I suspect, but Abu A'laa can speak for
himself.

Once again, apologies for misquoting Mahmoud. Thankfully, I didn't make the quote in a scientific journal :-)

Best,
Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
15-01-2007, 08:07
There are many discriminants between Arabic dialects. One on them is dialects that retain the interdental phonems of Classical Arabic (CA), like for instance Tunis, Baghdad, most Gulf dialects, all beduin dialects, etc. ; and dialects that don’t, like for instance almost all Morrocan dialects, Cairo, Beirut, Jerusalem, Damascus, and in general «urban» dialects with the exceptions cited before.
In this second category, there are those in which interdental phonems are reduced exclusively to dentals (Morroco), and those in which they are either reduced to dentals or spirants (Cairo, Beirut, Damascus, etc.), according to words, for instance «taani» («second» as in first and second) but «sanya» («second» as in a minute is made of 60 seconds).
Very logically, the way Arabophones pronounce C.A. is conditioned by their own dialects. There is a classical description of the «true» realization of phonems by Sibawayhi (8th century), but it is difficult to understand.
In general, when a dialect is of the first category (retaining interdentals), there is a confusion between ض and ظ , always both pronounced the same as a velarized version of ذ , i.e. an emphatic /dh/. According to Sibawayh, this realization is only the «true» realization of ظ , and it is wrong to apply it to ض . But on the other hand, no one should tell Arabs of the 21st century how to rightly pronounce their language, and a modern stance could be that «everything that is considered an acceptable realizaton for CA in a given Arab country is therefore acceptable».
This is why realization of ج in northern Egypt, southern Yemen and parts of Oman as /g/ is acceptable both in dialect AND local realization of CA. The same applies to the confusion of ض and ظ in the realization of CA in Tunisia and Iraq and elwewhere, since there is no reason to go and teach Tunisians, Iraqis and Saoudis how to pronounce their own language.
Now, this «open-minded» stance becomes tricky when it comes to transliteration in latin script, and particularly spronounciation of proper names, since, very naturally, all Arabs apply their local rules when it comes to transliterating names, since they already apply their local rules in pronouncing names.
Syrian Jamal becomes Tunisian Jamel, Algerian Djamel and Egyptian Gamal. All this is perfectly fine and acceptable. Trouble arouses slightly when those rules are applied to proper names of another country. I mean, Egyptians can pronounce the Beirut area of «Burj el-Brajneh» as «Borg al-BaraagIna», but it sounds weird and comical when heard by a Lebanese, just as «NaDJib MahfouDH» sounds extremely weird as well, since the guy’s name is NaGib MahfouZ.
This is why Arabists (meaning here University teachers of Arabic around the world), when in need of transliteration, have agreed of systems of transliteration. But when dealing with the «?local?» factor, they generally allow some variation in proper names, and a lot of variation when transliterating colloquial Arabic (as opposed to CA).
The standard transliteration for ظ is /Z/ with a dot underneath, that cannot be reproduced here. All Arabist are absolutely conscious that this represents neither the CA realization described by Sibawyh, nor the local pronounciation of many countries. It is simply a convention.
The standard transliteration for ض is a /D/ with a dot underneath.
What is NEVER used, is /th/ for either ظ or ض . By convention, /th/ is a standard transliteration of ث and ONLY of ث .
By convention, the standard transliteration of ذ is /dh/ (or an underlined d, not reproductible here).
Now, this means that the transliteration of هذه ليلتي should be «hadhihi laylati». Of course, we are all conscious that Umm Kulthum actually realizes it «hazihi laylati», following the conventions of the Egyptian realization of CA in music, established by the former generation as witnessed by our 78rpm recordings, and maybe before this. So whether we transcribe it hadhihi laylati or hazihi laylati is a free choice, although I would prefer the first solution.
But what I would like not to see anymore is يا ظالمني transcribed as /Thalimni/ , since this is NEITHER a conventional tranliteration of ظ , NOR a reproduction of the singer’s realization of this phonem. So please, even if you personnally pronounce it as a velarized dh, which is very good and very sibawayhic, do not use /th/ for anything else than ث .

3amr
15-01-2007, 09:47
I LOVE liguistics and phonology.

thanks for the enlightening post.

would you say that the great attention paid to proper pronunciation of the koran was the decisive factor in preserving the original way arabic was pronounced up to this day? (at least one dialect of arabic, and remnants of a couple of others).

Burhan
15-01-2007, 14:09
Its interesting to read the various discussions.
As for the topic of UK's performances, the choice of songs and their availability, here are a couple of comments....

yes, I agree that the advance of technological means facilitated increasing access to the various recordings of the performances...from the early radio days to TV broadcasts (particularly from 1960) to CDs and currently the internet of which this board is a good case/venue.

its disappointing in some ways to learn that the favoured songs / performances of UK by the general public are mostly those pertaining to the later stages of her career..where in fact the songs that she performed the most were totally different in quality and kind...and are composed in order by Sunbati, Zakaria and Qasabji.

examples of some songs and 'numbers':

سهران لوحدي
performed 38 times during 16 years (Nov 1947 - Feb 1962)
(the song that UK performed the most among all her other songs)

رق الحبيب
performed 35 times during 17 years (Sept 1941 - May 1956)

سلوا كؤوس الطلا
performed 28 times during 18 years (Oct 1937 - June 1954)

الامل
performed 27 times during 17 years (Dec 1940 - Jan 1956)

جددت حبك ليه
performed 26 times in only 8 years (Feb 1951 - Jan 1959)

(in principle, most of the above performances must have been recorded)


its also a puzzling issue why did she choose not to perform such songs (other than age) after 1962, although the only two songs from the fourties and fifites that she decided to perform again towards the end of her career were:

رياعيات الخيام : Morcco, May 1968
(which is her most performed Qassida- total performances 35)

&

سلوا قلبي: Cairo, June 1967
(which is her most performed 'religious' song - total performances 17)

This is a loss, knowing that filming the live performances began around 1960..and which would have possibly offered a chance of perserving an AV copy of her selected works from the 40s and 50s


as to what Luay pointed about UK's personal preferences...(Luay: you will be definitely 'disappointed' to know that يا ظالمني is the 4th most performed song by UK and one of the most performed works in her concerts outside Egypt: 30 performances in ONLY 6 years)

luay
15-01-2007, 15:13
Hi Burhan,
No, I'm not disappointed :-)
I love Ya Dhalimni (but not as much as Gholobt Asaleh, Hallet Layali-l-Amar, etc.)
So, singing it 26 times is fine with me, but I wanted to hear her singing the two songs I mentioned, for examples, also 26 times at least :-)

Some of the dates you gave are inaccurate Burhan. For example, Sahran was sung for the first time at the end of 1949 (based on Mahmoud, and hopefully this time I'm not misquoting him :-)
Also, I don't think El-Amal was sung in 1940; that would make it earlier than Raqq El-Habib, which I seriously doubt,..
I also doubt she sang the Rubaa'eyyat in 1968! I have no recollection of reading anywhere that this song was sung in Morocco.

Best regards,
Luay

Najib
15-01-2007, 17:05
Fred, can you please give us a listing of the Arabic letters and their transliteration in English please.

thanks

Neguib :)

أبو علاء
15-01-2007, 20:01
I confess I lost a bit the thread of the discussion after barely one day of absence. But, I failed to understand the relevance of Fred's long post concerning transliteration of Arabic words here. Is this in relation with the way Burhan trasliterated the dha' of ya dhalimni? I couldn't follow the content in detail either, simply because the use of complex script added to the problem of encoding and forum display mode chosen by each of us has messed up everything therein so as to make it unintelligible.
This said, as I remember Fred's making a couple of comments on my way in transliterating certain Egytpian words and names and I have to say, notwithstanding the difficulty in applying any conventional system and more particularly the almost standardised one of The Encyclopedia of Islam in this forum due both to the lack of some specific characters in common computer keyboards and linux characters management constraints, it's a deliberate choice on my part to keep in mind classical Arabic origin of "dialecticised" words and/or names both when transliterating them as well as in transcribing them in Arabic writing. I know by doing so, I'm not being always faithful to the way in which such words and names are performed in daily linguistic practice. But, on the other hand, I'm not writing for a public totally ignorant of these dialects neither is my aim through these writings to teach them such dialects and more particularly pronounciation thereof.
I said it was a deliberate choice for two reasons. First, because I don't admit that any of such dialects makes a full fledged language of its own fully independent from classical Arabic and it's, for me, a cultural, historical and political imperative to make such links clearly visible to everybody starting with concerned locutors in the first place. Second, and this is closely linked to the first one, after all, classical Arabic unlike any dialect regardless of its cultural preponderance, is what Arab speakers have in common and, if the latter are to have any chance to talk to each other and understand each other, it's precisely by referring themselves to that common heritage as much and as frequently as possible. Because, otherwise, the risk is to have such common heritage progressively "dialecticised " and atomised and in the end condemned to total disappearance as a language. By all means I will not play an active part in such fatal "achievment"...
This reminds me of reading many years ago in a Moroccan newspaper (and here I'll switch to Arabic to avoid what happened with Fred's post)

قلتُ قرأت في إحدى الصّحف المغربيّة منذ زمن "الثَّمان" بمدّ الميم، يعنون "الثّمن"، ومأتى هذا الخطإ معلوم طبعا، وهو أنّ المواطن المغربيّ ينطق الكلمة هكذا حتّى حينما يقرأ نصّا فصيحا أو يحاول إنتاج حطاب فصيح فيما عدا الفصحاء من الخاصّة أو ربّما عند تلاوة بعض النّصوص المتّصلة بالمعتقد مثل الآيات القرآنيّة ؛ ولو أنّي اتّبعت منطق الفريد لصرت أكتب الكلمة بهذا الشّكل بل وبقلب الثّاء تاء (تمان) حين ورودها في سياق ليس بالضّرورة من أفصح الفصيح بدعوى أنّ المغربيّ ينطقها هكذا.
طبعا هذه القضيّة ثانويّة في منتدى مثل هذا ولذلك لم أتوقّف عندها أوّل مرّة (أو مرّتين) حينما ألمح إليها الفريد، وإنّما أردت أن أنتهز فرصة استطراده لعرض رأيي وشرحه مع توقّعي أنّنا قد لا نتّفق على أحد الرّأيين وعلمي أنّي على غير استعداد للتّخلّي عن موقفي، وما من ضير يخشى من هذا الاختلاف، حسبي أن يعلم الفريد أنّ الأمر ليس ناجما عن غفلة أو سلوك عفويّ من جانبي.

fredlag@noos.fr
15-01-2007, 21:06
relevance to the thread : none but non-standard transliteration of يا ظالممني
by "Ya Thamemni", offering occasion to address the matter

importance of the matter : not huge, considering the use of Arabic script, which lifts ambiguity. But sometimes bothersome when obviously aberrant.


أردت فقط أن نتحاشى كتابة شاذة جدا بالحروف اللاتينية، ككتابة حرف الظاء بالـ
th
فهذا غير متبع في أي نظام معترف به
وفيما يخص
encyclopédie de l'islam
فإنك لا تتبعه كذلك، إذ أن كتابة الظاء هو
z
وليس
dh
ولكن، ما علينا...
ردا على سؤال نجيب، ها هو نظام


encyclopédie de l'islam
', a, b, t, th, dj, h with a dot under, kh, d, dh, r, z, s, sh, s with a dot under, d with a dot under, t with a dot under, z with a dot under, ‘, gh, f, k with a dot under, k, l, m, n, h, w, y, + û, î
as you see, it's not ideal for a number of reason :
the odd choice of dj for ج whereas /j/ would be enough
the odd choice of k with a dot under for ق whereas /q/ is more simple
The "arabica" system is
', a, b, t, t, g with a chevron, h with a dot under, h, d, d, r, z, s, s with a chevron, s with a dot under, d with a dot under, t with a dot under, z with a dot under, ‘, f, q, k, l, m, n, h, w, y + â, î
here again, not ideal, considering /kh/, /sh/, /j/ are more common for respectively
خ
ش
ج

I would recommend a mix of both :
', a, b, t, th, j (dj when algerian, iraqi, gulfic ; g when Egyptian, whether colloquial or classical pronounced by Egyptians), h or 7, kh, d, dh, r, z, s, sh, s, d (dh when pronounced as interdental, in Tunisian, Gulfic, Iraki songs), t, z (dh when pronounced as interdental, in Tunisian, Gulfic, Iraki songs), ‘ or 3, gh, f, q (g when beduin pronounciation), k, l, m, n, h, w, y, û, î

I agree totally with Mohsen in considering dialects as different varieties of one same language and not independant languages, thus when transliterating dialect, "clacissizing" it in order to underline relationship when it is needed to lift ambiguity, but not when obvious.

in dialects, we must add /e/ and /o/, not existant in classical arabic

fredlag@noos.fr
15-01-2007, 21:16
@ Burhan :
Very interesting figures indeed. Is there any "good" performance of salu qalbi, since I only know the commercial version ?

أبو علاء
15-01-2007, 22:06
وفيما يخص
encyclopédie de l'islam
فإنك لا تتبعه كذلك، إذ أن كتابة الظاء هو
z
وليس
dh

يا أيّها الفريد، لقد ألمحت إلى ذلك ضمنا إلى أنّي لا أتّبع نظام دائرة المعارف الإسلاميّة ولا أيّ نظام اصطلاحيّ آخر إذ شرحت أسباب ذلك :


notwithstanding the difficulty in applying any conventional system and more particularly the almost standardised one of The Encyclopedia of Islam in this forum due both to the lack of some specific characters in common computer keyboards and linux characters management constraints
أمّا عن طريقة كتبابة الظّاء في ذلك النّظام وفي غيره على النّحو الّذي بيّنْتَ فإنّي أرى تحفّظ جهاد راسي بشأنها في مقدّمة كتابه عن الطّرب تحفّظا وجيها، وليس هذا الاستشهاد من باب "التّعالم" وإنّما حضرني لأنّي شرعت في قراءة الكتاب منذ يومين.

Burhan
16-01-2007, 16:06
@ Burhan :
Very interesting figures indeed. Is there any "good" performance of salu qalbi, since I only know the commercial version ?

thanks..though these number might have a certain marign of error, still they could be indicative of some fact.....
another interesting conclusion that might arise from these numbers is related to the 'Qasabji mystery'...and the many stories about the difference in musical imagery and taste between UK and Qasab that led to the end of their musical partnership.....which i am bit skeptical about particularly in judged as one the main reasons why UK refrained from accepting any new songs from him...knowing that she sang رق الحبيب around 35 times during 17 years...


as for سلوا قلبي , i will pursue this matter and get back to you soon...

أبو الغيث
16-01-2007, 16:15
@ Burhan :
Very interesting figures indeed. Is there any "good" performance

of salu qalbi, since I only know the commercial version ?

العزيز الفريد : أملك بكرة كتب عليها ( سلوا قلبي-حفلة نادي القوات المسلحة-الزمالك-1956
ولا أعرف ان كانت هي نفسها غير النسخة التجارية ....
أفدنا أفادك الله ......

luay
16-01-2007, 16:29
العزيز الفريد : أملك بكرة كتب عليها ( سلوا قلبي-حفلة نادي القوات المسلحة-الزمالك-1956
ولا أعرف ان كانت هي نفسها غير النسخة التجارية ....
أفدنا أفادك الله ......

Abu-l-Ghayth:
The commercial version is from 1968 (or 1967), but definitely not 1956. It's actually also
available on video.

There's also another commercial version, which doesn't seem to be standard in some countries, which is from the forties (as far as I know).

So, if the 1956 date is correct, then that concert is not on the forum, nor is it one of the two commercial versions.

Luay

Hattouma
16-01-2007, 18:18
Thanks Burhan for the reccording , until i have a chance listen to it :)

Fred your article about transliteration is indeed interesting ,thanks for this ..i also see Abu Alaa's very valid point .it is importaant to have a reference point .It took some time recetnly to find out that the Iraqi song called Ainach Aleya in the forums is actually Ainek Aleya !!...:) so in this case the transliteration did not help me comprehend the word in Arabic ! ,the same happens with transliteration in Arabic letters as well not only latin letters !! :)

ما أريد أن أسجله في هذا الموضوع لاتخص الكتابة باللاتينية بل بالعربية! أنا لا أحبذ اطلاقا كتابة الكاف العراقية تش و لا الجيم غير المعطشة "غ" أو "ك" و لا أعرف من ابتدع الأخيرة التي نتج عنها غلطات كثيرة في نطق أسماء أعجمية..فلماذا تستخدم حرف شكل و قائم لكتابة صوت معين من حرف أخر و أرى الحل المغربي مثلا باستخدام النقط مناسبا أكثر
: كً
لكني لا أعرف طريقه في كثير من الأجهزة و الأنظمة