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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : وحقّك أنت المنى والطّلب مرّة أخرى...



أبو علاء
17-01-2007, 21:39
هذا التّسجيل هو بين ما قدّمته هاله الحديدي في حلقتها الأخيرة الوحيد الّّذي لم يكن بصوت أبي العلاء، وهو ممّا يصحّ وصفه بالتّسجيل "النّادر" وإن كنت أفضّل صفة "غير المتداول" لما فيها من تحفّظ ورصانة، سوى أنّ الأستاذة هالة أبت إلاّ أن تقطعه بعد أن شارف على النّهاية...
وأقدّمه لقيمته الوثائقيّة لا غير إذ لم يبد لي فيه كارم محمود موفّقا غاية التّوفيق رغم ما أبلاه من بلاء حسن في غنائه الدّور والموّال من خلال نماذج أخرى من تراث النّهضة.


Karim Mahmud singing wahaqqika 'anta-l-muna wa-t-talab in huzam mode

kabh01
17-01-2007, 22:09
شكرا أبا علاء. كارم صوته جميل جدا و لكن للأسف الشديد أداءه لهذه التحفه لم يفعل بي شيئا. أبو العلا و أم كلثوم نعم لا يعلى عليهما رحمهما الله. و كما نقول باللبناني: " أعطي خبزك للخباز و لو أكل نصه". معليش خيرها بغيرها. رحمهم الله جميعا

fredlag@noos.fr
17-01-2007, 22:37
Oh, you're hard, people ! Come on ! This is *very* good.
The introductory 3ud is absolutely beautiful, except for the "faute de goût" at 2'10. Any idea on who this is ? K. Mahmud himself ?
Notice at 2'40 and again at 3'07 how a "hilya" is transformed into a standard feature of the la7n.
Also notice how he makes the same "wrong entry" into the rythm at 2'49 that Umm Kulthum makes in her Odeon record, a charming (but missed) attempt at changing rules the young singer tried in 1924, but it becomes also a somehow standard item with KM.
And he's a little too slow at times...
But let us not be too harsh, KM does a *very* correct job. I love the 3an at 5'07 and 5'24 ! very good and original. I have attempted to sing this piece many times (OK, you're not Karem Mahmud, Khawaga Lagrange) and couldn't achieve a tenth (hundredth?) of this. The trickiest thing in this song is the qaraar, you have to begin it real low in order to be able to achieve singing the gawab parts, and it is really difficult to be flashy in those low notes.

ovide
17-01-2007, 22:51
I have to say i compltely agree with our khawaga

the oud playing, most probably Karem him self, is absolutley beautiful, but i dislike the bastinkar part, and the distances almost "modéré" that he uses in the buslik
it hearts the soul of the jens here

as for the "faute de goût" one must say that it is a french speciality to discover them
even if french says "des goûts et des couleurs on n'en discute pas"!!!

:D

أبو علاء
17-01-2007, 23:16
أعترف أنّي لم أستمع إلى التّسجيل سوى مرّة واحدة كانت أثناء تسجيل الحصّة، وهي أقرب إلى السّماع من الاستماع، وما كتبته أعلاه ليس سوى انطباع عامّ عادت إليّ بعض تفاصيله من خلال تعليقي الفريد (الملاحظة المتعلّقة بالبطء والمجاهدة في مطابقة الإيقاع) وأبي الفداء.
ولكن عجبا لك أنت بالذّات يا أبا الفداء ولرأيك في عزف العود هنا، وأحسب مثلك أنّه كارم نفسه فقد اعتاد مصاحبة غنائه بالعزف في تسجيلات أخرى وجدت عزفه فيها أكثر إقناعا وأقلّ نمطيّة، فبقدر ما بدت لي جمله أصيلة فإنّي سرعانما وجدتها مكرّرة شبه مدرسيّة،وإنّي وجدت جملة الصّبا (أو البستنكار كما قلتَ) نموذجا مثاليّا عن تلك النّمطيّة وذاك الأسلوب المدرسيّ فكيف يتّفق لك ما أخذت من مآخذ على سيمون شاهين في تقسيمه الّذي رفعه "عودمان" والإعجاب بالتّقسيم في هذا التّسجيل ؟
فريد، لقد كنت كتبت رأيي في أداء أمّ كلثوم لقصائد أبي العلاء وفاتني أن أشير إلى أنّ القصيدة الّتي أحبّ سماعها منها عدا تلك الّتي تعجبني ممّا غنّته من قصائده (أمانا أيّها القمر المطلّ) وهي ليس له هي أكذّب نفسي عنك في كلّ ما أرى، فهي تبدو لي فيها أوفق منها في وحقّك أنت المنى ؛ أمّا عن علاقتها مع الإيقاع عامّة فقد أبدت لنا الأيّام أنّها لم تكن قطّ على خير ما يرام كما يتّضح من أيّ تسجيل من تسجيلات حفلاتها الّتي نستمع إليها هذه الأيّام.

ovide
17-01-2007, 23:33
أبا العلاء العزيز

إذا عرف السبب بطل العجب، وكما يقول المتنبي
إنما تنجح المقالة في المرء إذا لاقت هوى في الفؤاد


وإنما تنجح مقالة كارم محمود عندي لاعجابي بريشته، وليس بمخيلته النغمية
(على أن أضيف أنني أحب صوت عوده، وغياب خشونة "الرش" عنه، بالمقارنة مع بعض ما سمعته لدى تيسير الياس مؤخراً، أو لدى مجدي العقيلي في الملف الذي تحدثنا عنه مؤخراً)
وليست مدرسية كارم محمود ما أعجبني
وقد أرفقت إعجابي بتخفظات على أية حال
وقد ذكرت رأيي في مكان آخر من أن مجرد عزف المقام قد يكون جميلاً، دون أن يكون مبدعاً (واستعمالي للمفردة مغاير لاستعمالك لها).
لكن مدرسية كارم محمود هي خلاصة مدرسة جميلة، وهو طالب ناجح، فأتت النتيجة جميلة، وهو ما قلت، ولم أقل أنها مبدعة، ولا أنه عازف فذ، فما أطلبه من العازف الصولو مختلف عما أطلبه من عازف يمهد للغناء. إنها مثل اللوحات الجميلة للطبيعة، التي ما عاد يرسمها سوى طلبة المعاهد أو اليائسون من الرسم في زمان ما بعد التكعيبية وعيرها من المدارس.



وحالي في كل ذلك كحال فريدريك لاغرانج ما بين المغتيات الشعبيات وبين ماجدة الرومي. :)

لا وضعه الله يوماً بينهن، وأبقاه ذخراً للعوالم ولعشاق عالمهن

luay
18-01-2007, 06:27
؛ أمّا عن علاقتها مع الإيقاع عامّة فقد أبدت لنا الأيّام أنّها لم تكن قطّ على خير ما يرام كما يتّضح من أيّ تسجيل من تسجيلات حفلاتها الّتي نستمع إليها هذه الأيّام.

My "radar" indicated there was an "attack" on Om Kulthoum somewhere, so I came to the defense (rescue) :-)
Abu A'laa: you know how much I admire your discussion and argument, even when I disagree with you (and we have disagreed on several occasions :-), and now I'll make my case for Om Kulthoum's defense; it's nor an agreement nor a disagreement, but rather a few points to consider:

1. Om Kulthoum's career spanned about 50 years. In my opinion, what we've heard is nothing
compared to what we haven't heard (in terms of both quantity and quality). So, I don't know if
we can judge her based on what we've heard only (I mean, for every time she didn't go with the rhythm, probably there are 100 times when she did go very well with it).

2. You clearly mentioned her LIVE recordings, when you commented on this issue. Live recordings, particularly in the case of Om Kulthoum, are often a wild roller-coaster. She sometimes forgot the lyrics, sometimes forgot the melody, sometimes the ensemble forgot the melody (example: Dhikrayat in Syria), etc. The lady stood on stage for hours and hours, performing three songs in a row, and in most cases, with lots of improvisations. So, breaking with the rhythm is something that would eventually happen, under these circumstances, but that doesn't necessarily means she's not good with rhythm.

3. Listen to her studio recordings (I know you don't like them :-). Does she violate the rhythm? Well, Fred gave an example (I haven't noticed that, nor have I listened yet, but
I doubt Fred is wrong here), but can we find other examples, especially after she matured
artistically?

To me, Om Kulthoum, with her extensive improvisations, was so adventurous, that it's not
easy to judge her based on one, two, or a few performances. Also, when she improvised, I'm sure she had some sort of a "line of thought" that she would follow, and if the percussionist wasn't in-sync with that line, it would sound that she violated the rhythm, even though it should have been HE who should have followed...

And with this, I rest my case :-)

Best regards and utmost admiration to your discourse.

Luay (Om Kulthoum's defense attorney :-)

Hattouma
18-01-2007, 12:25
Luay , you are indeed best defense attorney Souma could find here : ) , but regarding the first point in your case .. it might not be very convincing as we can only judge at this moment based on what have reached us today ..(which is luckily a lot and increasing ). I can imagine however that for people who lived her time..it is completley different ...the same as the generations before her..we can only take their words for it !

it's always nice to hear Karimwith his ud like this ...also felt sometimes he''s bit too slow ..

أبو علاء
18-01-2007, 13:06
Dear Luay, as you know, I enjoy this kind of exchange and, to me, that's one of the main features that make the difference in this forum. No need to extend ourselves much on the amount of appreciation we have for each other, which goes beyond the need for putting it in words.
You also know what I think of 'um kalthum as a singer and her status in contemporary Arab music and my criticising a given aspect in her artistic legacy doesn't, by any means, undermine such status. On the contrary, it even gives more weight to what I write in her favour. The same applies to so many other outstanding artists such as Fayruz, Sunbati, including Salih 'abdi-l-hay (my own Farid Al-'atrash:)). The same applies to artists I don't like and whose merits I don't heitate to underline whenever it appears they have any like 'abdi-l-wahab. Actually, my moto in art (among a few other things) is that phrase attributed to Bakunin: No god, no master!
On the other hand, 'um kalthum wouldn't be the only notorious exceptionally gifted artist not to be in very good terms with rythm and I will here quote a single name: 'abdu-l-hay Hilmi.
When it comes to such outstanding figures, such a trait is not necessarily depreciating. It might as well be interpreted as denotative of the tremendous importance these people pay to the melody exclusively to anything else. Rythm, in their view, would not amount to anything more than a contingency. This is at least the inference I could draw from Fred's analyses of 'abdi-l-hay and I readily share . There's probably there a mix of natural inclination to privilege the melody over anything else and a sort of self-consciousness.
I'll end up with that famous comment 'um purportedly had concerning 'ibrahim 'afifi. She's reported to have said "dah byusturni!"
The statement is eloquently self-explanatory.

NB. 'afifi was the percussionist in her ensemble and the sentence meas literally "He's the one who conceals my [setbacks].

Najib
18-01-2007, 13:32
No point for me to add anything.

Sorry I like Karem Mahmoud even if he is singing in a Cabaret, so how come he is singing wa haqqiqa.

Ana min hizb el Farid huna!

أبو الغيث
18-01-2007, 13:40
No point for me to add anything.

Sorry I like Karem Mahmoud even if he is singing in a Cabaret, so how come he is singing wa haqqiqa.

Ana min hizb el Farid huna!

Me too Najib , ana min hizb karem , i like him very much

luay
18-01-2007, 15:46
This is the first time I hear what Om Kulthoum said about Ibrahim A'fifi. But as much as I like him as percussionist, sometimes he tended to go too fast even when Om Kulthoum was slowing down to improvise. If I'm not mistaken that was my impression when I heard the first non-commercial version of El Amal on this forum (I think it was posted by Raouf).

But I need to go back now to Wa Haqqika and listen to the part Fred is talking about, since I've never noticed that. But I do remember a different case. The Syrian music expert Saa'dallah Agha-l-Qala'a was once analyzing the two songs Om Kulthoum composed (Ya Naseema-l-Fagr and A'la E'iny-l-Hagr), and he pointed out to a mistake in the second one, by saying that there should have been a "dom" (from the percussion) immediately before she sings the very first word! And he illustrated that point with musicians in his program who played it twice, with and without the "dom".

About Karem's performance, I agree that he's too slow sometimes (listen, for example, to "Tahayyara Fee Wasfeha", especially Tahayyara). Other than that, I like it.

Luay

rkafina
18-01-2007, 18:30
I agree with you Abu Ala';this kind of exchange is what makes this forum special; and this also forces special people to react in a special way.

I like the recording and oud playing, it sounds like shami style;
I think if KM was a composer; he could do something better - please compare with Farid Ghosson's recording somewhere here for the same song; and do not consider the voice; only see how he "directed" the song.

luay
18-01-2007, 18:52
Am I understanding you correctly, Rabeea', that Farid Ghosn sang Wahaqqika? If so, is it on this forum, and what's the link?

Also, you wrote "if Karem were a composer". But I thought he was a composer. Didn't he compose the music for Amana A'leik, Samra Ya Samra,...?

Luay

rkafina
18-01-2007, 19:45
My idea about him; or what I feel; that he is a very good singer and good oud player; although he composed few songs - great songs>>
You can say the same about Farid Ghosson; he was a great oud player; and he did few songs; but I suggest you listen to wahaqiqa from him and have your say:
http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5047#post5047


Am I understanding you correctly, Rabeea', that Farid Ghosn sang Wahaqqika? If so, is it on this forum, and what's the link?

Also, you wrote "if Karem were a composer". But I thought he was a composer. Didn't he compose the music for Amana A'leik, Samra Ya Samra,...?

Luay