PDA

مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : جدّدت حبّك ليه : أما من مفرّ من المكرّرات اليوم ؟



أبو علاء
31-01-2007, 16:19
بدأت بالسّؤال لأنّي رأيت أبا الغيث حاول مرّتين إتحافنا بتسجيل جديد وباءت محاولتاه كلتاهما بالفشل، مع أنّه يبقى له فضل الاجتهاد، وقد علمت أنّ لدينا حفلتين لهذه الدّرّة (قد لا يوافق الفريد إلاّ أنّي ولؤيّ نعدّها من درر الغناء العربيّ)، إحداهما من دمشق والثّانية رفعها صبحي ولا أعلم تاريخها ومكانها، فهل هي نفس الحفلة الّتي سأرفع تسجيلها الآن ؟ لست أدري ولا أملك الوقت للمقارنة الّتي أترك أمرها للؤي، وأرفع التّسجيل وأنا مطمئنّ البال فإن كانت حفلة ثالثة مختلفة عن السّابقتين فهنيئا للمستمعين وإن كانت نفس حفلة صبحي فإنّي متأكّد من أنّ نسختي أنقى وأوفى باعتبار ظروف تسجيلها، ويكفي في تلك الحال حذف ملفّ صبحي وإحلال ملفّي محلّه مع حذف هذ الهراء...
والحفلة حسب مذيع إذاعة الأغاني من حديقة الأزبكيّة بتاريخ 7 أبريل 1955، وقد كنت رفعت من نفس الحفلة تسجيلا لوصلة يا ظالمني.


As per the filename. We have just to check whether this is not the same version previously uploaded by fynyx without any information thereon. If such is the case, mine is probably of better quality and should therefore replace the older copy

أبو الغيث
31-01-2007, 17:47
بدأت بالسّؤال لأنّي رأيت أبا الغيث حاول مرّتين إتحافنا بتسجيل جديد وباءت محاولتاه كلتاهما بالفشل، مع أنّه يبقى له فضل الاجتهاد، وقد علمت أنّ لدينا حفلتين لهذه الدّرّة (قد لا يوافق الفريد إلاّ أنّي ولؤيّ نعدّها من درر الغناء العربيّ)، إحداهما من دمشق والثّانية رفعها صبحي ولا أعلم تاريخها ومكانها، فهل هي نفس الحفلة الّتي سأرفع تسجيلها الآن ؟ لست أدري ولا أملك الوقت للمقارنة الّتي أترك أمرها للؤي، وأرفع التّسجيل وأنا مطمئنّ البال فإن كانت حفلة ثالثة مختلفة عن السّابقتين فهنيئا للمستمعين وإن كانت نفس حفلة صبحي فإنّي متأكّد من أنّ نسختي أنقى وأوفى باعتبار ظروف تسجيلها، ويكفي في تلك الحال حذف ملفّ صبحي وإحلال ملفّي محلّه مع حذف هذ الهراء...
والحفلة حسب مذيع إذاعة الأغاني من حديقة الأزبكيّة بتاريخ 7 أبريل 1955، وقد كنت رفعت من نفس الحفلة تسجيلا لوصلة يا ظالمني.



As per the filename. We have just to check whether this is not the same version previously uploaded by fynyx without any information thereon. If such is the case, mine is probably of better quality and should therefore replace the older copy

I can't upload the file right now. Again, I'm having problems with my connection. Just bear with me



المكرر يحلو منك يا أبو علاء :D

أبو علاء
31-01-2007, 20:24
أخيرا تمّ رفع الملفّ بعد لأي، وأنا الآن في انتظار حكم لؤي.

المكرر يحلو منك يا أبو علاء :D
بارك اللّه فيك يا أبا الغيث على كرمك، لكنّ المكرّر لا ينفع أيّا من كان مأتاه.

luay
31-01-2007, 20:52
Thanks Abu A'laa. Give me a few hours and I'll be back, hopefully with the answer that this is different from Sobhi's version (not that Sobhi's version is not nice, but simply because I want to hear more versions of this JEWEL).
And yes, we are in a HUGE disagreement with Fred on this song :-)

Luay


أخيرا تمّ رفع الملفّ بعد لأي، وأنا الآن في انتظار حكم لؤي.

بارك اللّه فيك يا أبا الغيث على كرمك، لكنّ المكرّر لا ينفع أيّا من كان مأتاه.

fredlag@noos.fr
31-01-2007, 21:15
I don't say that I don't like it, because I do, I just say that I don't see what makes it so special... It's just typical Sunbati...

أبو علاء
31-01-2007, 21:27
I don't say that I don't like it, because I do, I just say that I don't see what makes it so special... It's just typical Sunbati...

فقه برد أغيض لنا من شعر بشّار... وما نطق به لسان الفريد (أو ما خطّت يده) أهول ممّا نسبنا إليه.:)


You write this as though to say "...and there's nothing to write home about anything that is "typical Sunbati" whatever it is and however nice one might find it."! this amounts to a war declaration. Mush kida ya lua'ay

fredlag@noos.fr
31-01-2007, 22:28
أغيظ يا ابن تونس ، أغيظ...
no wonder I find Ya Zalemni spelled Ya Dhalemni
:D
But sincerely, can you tell me this is at the same level as Helm, Ahaat, Ana fe entezarak, Ahl el-Hawa ?

أبو علاء
31-01-2007, 23:10
جل من لا يسهو يا فريد افندي، ولا أقول وما أوتينا من العلم إلاّ قليلا لأنّ هذه على الأقلّ ممّا وسعه علمي.




Comparing Zakariya compositions with Sunbati's is not an easy task even when talking of compositions for the same singer, hence of the same caliber or supposed to be so, and from the same period. Thus, I would rather look at their respective works as two parallel aesthetic lines. But, this said, I sincerely don't see why Zakariya's big hits you mentioned and to which I will add habibi yis'id 'awqatuh and, although hesitatingly because we simply can't figure out what belongs to the composer from what's of the singer's own creation, el-'awwila, on the one hand, and Riyadh's gaddidt,
sahran, ya tul 'adhabi, ghulubt and hallit layali-l-qamar, on the other hand.
Fred, I can hardly see an equivalent as per the amount of tarab found in the composed melody of yalli hawak fi-l-fu'ad in any other contemporary composition. This might make you laugh , but, to me, such melody (I'm talking of melody, not structure, rythm or vocal technique, the latter would already transport us into the singers' realm, neither does such a statement entail the possibility of comparing nahdha dors with 40s-50s 'um kalthum songs) is perfectly comparable to the initial section (madhhab) of 'ahidti qalbi or ez-zahri wi-l-'aghsan

fredlag@noos.fr
31-01-2007, 23:34
I was more in the "flaming war" mode than serious discussion, including the sahw (and God knows how limited my science is, I had to look up in warraq to discover who Bard was and what was that all about...).

I am definitely in favor of considering hallet layali, ya zalemni, ghulubt as tarab equivalents of zakariyya's. I am not so much impressed by gaddedt, but it has its great parts indeed.
Now, as far as melody is concerned, comparing with adwar of Husni or Qabbani or Hamuli is always possible. All these pieces have wonderful melodic sentences. Even in modern music, there are sentences that are certainly at the level of early 20th century music, with Wahab, with Baligh, with Mekkawi. Hell, even Wassuf's "elli te3ebna senin fe hawah/3amel nafso ma ye3rafnash" is as far as the melody is concerned a real gem. The difference is in the logic of the composition, the phrasé, the accompaniment, the interpretation by the singer. But we know melody is only one element in the chemistry that makes a good song. Imagine a mediocre singer in Ya zalimni, with wahda we noss and synthetizer accompaniment : you would hardly be able to tell it's a good song. Imagine Hallet layali by Latifa !

أبو علاء
01-02-2007, 00:26
But we know melody is only one element in the chemistry that makes a good song. Imagine a mediocre singer in Ya zalimni, with wahda we noss and synthetizer accompaniment : you would hardly be able to tell it's a good song. Imagine Halle t layali by Latifa !


I can't agree more on this part. But, I can't say the same for the Baligh-Wasuf part.:)

أبو الغيث
01-02-2007, 11:35
بدأت بالسّؤال لأنّي رأيت أبا الغيث حاول مرّتين إتحافنا بتسجيل جديد وباءت محاولتاه كلتاهما بالفشل، مع أنّه يبقى له فضل الاجتهاد، وقد علمت أنّ لدينا حفلتين لهذه الدّرّة (قد لا يوافق الفريد إلاّ أنّي ولؤيّ نعدّها من درر الغناء العربيّ)، إحداهما من دمشق والثّانية رفعها صبحي ولا أعلم تاريخها ومكانها، فهل هي نفس الحفلة الّتي سأرفع تسجيلها الآن ؟ لست أدري ولا أملك الوقت للمقارنة الّتي أترك أمرها للؤي، وأرفع التّسجيل وأنا مطمئنّ البال فإن كانت حفلة ثالثة مختلفة عن السّابقتين فهنيئا للمستمعين وإن كانت نفس حفلة صبحي فإنّي متأكّد من أنّ نسختي أنقى وأوفى باعتبار ظروف تسجيلها، ويكفي في تلك الحال حذف ملفّ صبحي وإحلال ملفّي محلّه مع حذف هذ الهراء...
والحفلة حسب مذيع إذاعة الأغاني من حديقة الأزبكيّة بتاريخ 7 أبريل 1955، وقد كنت رفعت من نفس الحفلة تسجيلا لوصلة يا ظالمني.



As per the filename. We have just to check whether this is not the same version previously uploaded by fynyx without any information thereon. If such is the case, mine is probably of better quality and should therefore replace the older copy




الفشل الذريع الذي جنته علي يدي بالامس , والاحباط الذي اصابني بعد اخفاقي بمحاولة اطلاعكم على تحفة جديدة , أو درة مختفية من درر ام كلثوم , كل هذا دفعني بالامس الى اطالة البحث عن شيء جديد او شي غاب عن عيوني لوهلة, ووجدت أخيرا بكرتين لحفلتين مختلفتين لنفس الاغنية التي اعتبرها واسطة العقد الكلثومي (يشاركني هذا الرأي ابو علاء ولؤي والفريد :D ) احداهما (اي البكرتين) كتب عليها
حديقة الازبكية 1-1-1959 68 دقيقة
والثانية كتب عليها القاهرة بدون تاريخ أو ذكر لأي شيء ما عدا ( حفلة رائعة) بخط جدي .
سأرفع الحفلتين بانتظار رأي لؤي أو اخينا محمود الشامي , عسى أن يخفف اعجابكم باحدى الحفلتين ما ألم بي ليلة الامس :(

أبو الغيث
01-02-2007, 11:44
الفشل الذريع الذي جنته علي يدي بالامس , والاحباط الذي اصابني بعد اخفاقي بمحاولة اطلاعكم على تحفة جديدة , أو درة مختفية من درر ام كلثوم , كل هذا دفعني بالامس الى اطالة البحث عن شيء جديد او شي غاب عن عيوني لوهلة, ووجدت أخيرا بكرتين لحفلتين مختلفتين لنفس الاغنية التي اعتبرها واسطة العقد الكلثومي (يشاركني هذا الرأي ابو علاء ولؤي والفريد :D ) احداهما (اي البكرتين) كتب عليها
حديقة الازبكية 1-1-1959 68 دقيقة
والثانية كتب عليها القاهرة بدون تاريخ أو ذكر لأي شيء ما عدا ( حفلة رائعة) بخط جدي .
سأرفع الحفلتين بانتظار رأي لؤي أو اخينا محمود الشامي , عسى أن يخفف اعجابكم باحدى الحفلتين ما ألم بي ليلة الامس :(

البكرة الثانية

luay
01-02-2007, 16:15
Sorry for the delay. I've started with Abu A'laa's version, and it is different from Sobhi's version, and definitely from the other one on the forum, since that one is from Damascus.
Can't comment much on the song or performance at this point because between Abu A'laa and Abu-l-Ghayth I have several songs to check :-) And I ENJOY it, so don't stop.

And I must say: Samahaka-Llah Ya Fred Afandi. What are Baligh, Makkawi, Wassouf, and even Wahab, doing when we talk about Sunbati, and his masterpiece Gaddedte Hobbak Leh.
This is definitely a just cause for a war :-)
Najib should join the war as well :-) I recall once his comment about Sunbati's "symphony" in Gaddedte Hobbak Leh. As Abu A'laa said, and specifically that very part he mentioned, what's more beautiful than "Yalli Hawak Fel-Foud...". I love it so much, and I remember asking Abu A'laa and Najib about its maqam, and they told me it was the Suznak. But the song, from every second to the very last second is perfect.
I agree with Abu A'laa that Zakariya and Sunbati are two "independent" lines of music, but as much as I love the "tarab and tatreeb" in Zakariya's music, I don't find any of his songs to be more "tarab" than Gaddedte Hobbak Leh.
Also, what is "typical Sunbati"? Is it a bad thing, a good thing, or what? :-) I think Sunbati reached his musical heights in this one. I love Gholobt Asaleh, Hallet Layali-l-Amar, etc., but don't find them "better" than this one. The only thing these songs have over Gaddedte Hobbak Leh is that the structure of the melody allows for more improvisations (the rhythm in Hallet Layali is so slow that she could improvise in almost every line), whereas that's not the case in Gaddedte Hobbak Leh.
But what's more amazing to me is that someone who's "championing" the music/songs of Hamuli, Manyalawi, Hijazi, etc., is even mentioning Wassouf :D

After all, we have different tastes, and to me, Gaddedte Hobbak Leh among the cream of the crop in Om Kulthoum's repertoir.

Thanks Abu A'laa for this recording, and once again, Allah Yehdeek Ya Fred :D

Best regards,
Luay

luay
01-02-2007, 16:24
Thank you so much Abu-l-Ghayth.
This is indeed from January 1, 1959 (and what a way to start the new year, with Om Kulthoum singing Gaddedte Hobbak Leh!!!!) This is different from the other three on the forum, which now makes them four versions of this song so far.
I'll listen to the other one and see if it's different (hope so).

Again, can't listen to the song in its entirety now.

Best,
Luay


الفشل الذريع الذي جنته علي يدي بالامس , والاحباط الذي اصابني بعد اخفاقي بمحاولة اطلاعكم على تحفة جديدة , أو درة مختفية من درر ام كلثوم , كل هذا دفعني بالامس الى اطالة البحث عن شيء جديد او شي غاب عن عيوني لوهلة, ووجدت أخيرا بكرتين لحفلتين مختلفتين لنفس الاغنية التي اعتبرها واسطة العقد الكلثومي (يشاركني هذا الرأي ابو علاء ولؤي والفريد :D ) احداهما (اي البكرتين) كتب عليها
حديقة الازبكية 1-1-1959 68 دقيقة
والثانية كتب عليها القاهرة بدون تاريخ أو ذكر لأي شيء ما عدا ( حفلة رائعة) بخط جدي .
سأرفع الحفلتين بانتظار رأي لؤي أو اخينا محمود الشامي , عسى أن يخفف اعجابكم باحدى الحفلتين ما ألم بي ليلة الامس :(

luay
01-02-2007, 16:35
You made them five, Abu-l-Ghayth. A million thanks.
This is different from the other four. I have a Gaddedte Hobbak Leh feast now :-)

Luay


البكرة الثانية

أبو الغيث
01-02-2007, 16:41
You made them five, Abu-l-Ghayth. A million thanks.
This is different from the other four. I have a Gaddedte Hobbak Leh feast now :-)

Luay

هذا أقل تعويض عن اخفاق أمس , وازعاج اسماعكم بنسخ سمعتموها ومللتم من سماعها من قبل, والبكرة الأخيرة اهداء خاص للفريد :D

luay
01-02-2007, 16:51
Abu-l-Ghayth,
Yalli Kan Yeshgeek Aneeni has been playing in my car everyday (more than once a day sometimes) for about two months now!!! Don't worry, I don't get bored of this stuff!
And thanks for the special dedication to Fred :p

Luay



هذا أقل تعويض عن اخفاق أمس , وازعاج اسماعكم بنسخ سمعتموها ومللتم من سماعها من قبل, والبكرة الأخيرة اهداء خاص للفريد :D

omkolthom
01-02-2007, 18:16
شكرا على هذا المحهود الجبار
وماذا عن تاريخ ومكان الحفل على البكرة الثانية

أبو علاء
10-02-2007, 18:54
تمّ تجميع الأجزاء الثّلاثة من حفلة 1 يناير 1959 ضمن ملفّ واجد متّصل مع إصلاح خلل في السّرعة إذ كانت سرعة الجزءين الثّاني والثّالث ناقصة عن الأوّل بنصف درجة.


The three parts of the 1st of Januay 1959 conert have been assembled in a single file after modifiying the speed/pitch of the 2nd and 3rd part, which were lower by half a degree than the first part

luay
10-02-2007, 20:56
Thank you very much Abu A'laa.

Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
10-02-2007, 23:04
@ Lu'ay

"But what's more amazing to me is that someone who's "championing" the music/songs of Hamuli, Manyalawi, Hijazi, etc., is even mentioning Wassouf"

Oh come on, I'm not championning G. Wassouf's cocaine destroyed voice and macho antics. I'm simply saying that "yalli te3ebna fe hawak", a composition by Idon'tknowho al-mawgi (related to muhammad?) could perfectly be a 1940 taqtuqa, and a really good one even.
I meant that many melodies, destroyed by mediocre singers (like G. Wassouf) can be wonderful, and that genious singers can give life to average melodies.
As for the sunbati vs. zakariyya war, well, my feeling is that Zakariyya is closer to the art music school I defend, while Sunbati is a step further towards mainstream popular music. But all this is iddle, we are so close any war is simply artificial.

ovide
10-02-2007, 23:24
If it is war, than lebanese should be in it!!

so,
For me, Zakariya wins absolutely,
Sunbati did some exceptional things of course, but nothing is comparable to this sensation that Zakariya is capable of créating (singing or composing)

Sunbati is much too intellectuel to be an all time composer
In an article bu khayri shalabi it is obvious that sunbati is obssessed by comparing composing to architecture
well in a symphonical, orchestral composing, it is very importing,
but in arabic singing, it is just a handicap!!
how ever we saw, thanks to fred, that he was capable of composing qasaed 3ala el wahda also!! but he intellectualy wasn't for it

on the other side, i file that zakarya was (like filmon wehbe in some way) capable of composing with an immediaty, a fluency that maches his sensastions fleuncy
and that is why he, for me, is the best in his field (now of course perhaps it is not the same field that sunbati who should maybe be compared to qasabji than and not to zakarya)

so maybe we open a new war? (sunbati vs wahab vs qasab)?)

(last thing: i adore the old wassouf, not only some of taqatiq are very nice, like el 7abayeb, or 7elef el amar, or yalli te3ebna
but also, when he had a voice, he was one of the rare persons that song oum koulthoum songs by their own way, and not imitating here, that is a courage and respect to the heritage i find)

Najib
11-02-2007, 01:15
Right I'm not replying just to this thread but also to the Inta 3omry debate as well.

I feel sometimes that there is a mental vetoe on Baligh, 3abdel Wahab, by Luay and Mohsen. I don't have that. I love singing Siret el Hobb, my friends love to hear it from me, I learned it whilst falling in love with my girlfriend, and I sang it at our wedding party (so lucky that the girlfriend and my wife are the same person by the way :-) ). I don't have a problem with some nice melodic lines even if the poetry isn't that deep.

Ovide I understand what you are saying about melodic lines, but to say that some NEW melodic lines are better than most of the output of the Nahda era is a gross over statement. Especially from someone who appreciates Abu Haggag.

Comparisons? Yes you can compare. On the whole for me Zakaria is much more "tarabic" than Sunbati. Yet let's not forget that Sunbati for me as a single work "composed" one of the most tarabic Taqtuqah ever which is Leyh Ya Banafseg. Now I did put composed between double quotes because the beauty of Leyh Ya Banafseg (maybe 80% of it) lays in the genius rendition of Saleh 3abdelhay a master of the nahda era and one of its last martyrs.

Now I know that, a while ago, I said that the introduction of Gaddidt is very symphonic (and may the dung of a million camel cover me for ever for saying that) what I meant is that, like Ovide, there is a lot of brain work in the piece.

However TODAY only TODAY, I discovered what is my problem with Gaddidt.

You see few years ago, my friend violinist Wael Abu Bakr asked me to learn two songs, Hulm and Gaddidt Hubbak. It took me two months of work to learn Hulm, and I did it, no problem, but Gaddidt I only learnt about 70% of it. Never the complete 100% of it.

And today I discovered why. The song is beautiful but it's too bloody long, it does not finish. It does not have an end! With Zakariya's songs I can always see the light at the end of the tunnel, but that is not the same feeling with ALL of Sunbati's songs. I mean you might not like Awedti 3eyni as much as Gaddidt, but 3awwedti 3eyni is a song that when you try to sing it you can see the light at the end of the tunnel!

This is my problem with Gaddidt! In many occasions I start it with Wael, and everytime I have this stupid look on my face saying Gosh isn't it over yet?

The song for me is too bloody long! Maybe in this case it is too much brain work, and less tarab then Zakaria's gems.

Sorry I took too much, but you asked me to join the war, and here I am!

أبو علاء
11-02-2007, 02:26
... No, no hitman of course! But, I do think you're unfair to Sunbati in gereneral and to gaddidt in particular. Nobody equals Sunbati's suznak here except Zakariya in hulm and, yet, here the suznak portion is both extremely beautiful and so extensive (it starts with dana law nisiti-l-li kan...)
As for Baligh and Wahhab, I think you're overestimating my adversity against them. You already know the Wahhab I like. What you don't know is that I made my early classes with Baligh. I was first attracted by Arab music when I was hardly nine or ten years old mainly through Baligh compositions first for Halim (gana-l-hawa, 'ala hisbi wdad galbi, zayyi-l-hawa...) and Warda (mostly balash tifariq)!! The latter was the song of my first real love story. I bet, by now, it has entered the "classical" repertoire in the common Egyptian eyes ('idha'atu-l-'aghani included it a few days ago in a late nigh programme called hasibak li-t-tarab!).
I have to leave it here now. But, I'll come back to finish this post tomorrow. So, just hang on!

luay
11-02-2007, 03:31
Hi Najib (and all),
I love this discussion/debate; even though it's about personal tastes, but it's raising several interesting issues, and telling about the likings/dislikings of all of us here.
I want to comment on a few points, which are not necessarily tied together:
1. I do not have a "mental veto" on Baligh and Wahab. Like Abu A'laa and Fred himself, on several occasions I gave examples of the songs I LOVE from Wahab. As for Baligh, I am a big liar if I don't tell you that I do not listen regularly to Ansak. I do sing Seerte-l-Hobb or Ba'eed Annak sometimes (by myself, since I have a horrible voice and I do master "nashaz" as well :D ). But my point was about that what they gave Om Kulthoum is nothing. If the value of Om Kulthoum before the Wahab/Baligh era was X, it was X after that as well. My opinion, of course. The same can NOT be said of Qassabji, Sunbati and Zakariya.

2. About "mental veto", let's talk about Farid El Atrache (my friend, as Abu A'laa calls him) for a second. His music and singing are completely ignored on this forum, for example. You said once that he's overrated, which I found surprising, because he's hardly talked about or appreciated. Yet, I have a challenge for those who ignore or want to ignore him, and at the same time talk about Wahab, Baligh, etc.: give me something that Wahab gave after the early 40's that's even remotely close in Tarab to Awwel Hamsa! Give me something Wahab gave after the 40's that's as beautiful as Habib El Omr, and particularly the tarab-filled part of Ashouf Fe-A'yoonak Eddonya! Give something Wahab made that's as expressive as Adnaytani Bel-hagr! Now, as I said, Farid is ignored, and you don't have to listen to him, or answer these questions, but there is some nice tarab that's missed by not listening to some of Farid's songs. Yes, he's repetitive; yes, his music sounds the same in many songs; yes, and yes, and yes, but I stick by these songs that I mentioned (and several others), and really ask that those who ignore Farid listen to them.

3. About Sunbati and the "long tunnel" that doesn't end, in your words :p :
I simply believe it's necessitated by the lyrics. Zakariya composed music for Bayram's lyrics, which were short zajal, whereas Sunbati composed music for poems like Nahj El Borda or Wulida-l-Huda, each of which has about 30 verses of poetry! The question, in my opinion, is whether Sunbati's composition looked like several pieces put together artificially? I would strongly argue that that's the last thing that comes to mind when one hears something like Gaddedte Hobbak Leh. On the other hand, that's what one hears when listening to Leilet Hobb of Wahab, for example.
And I think there's something more here: some people cannot tolerate listening to a single song for 90 minutes. Some cannot tolerate listening to a 3-minute song. Some cannot tolerate listening to a studio recording, etc. Each of us fall in one or more of these categories. I personally don't like studio recordings, whether it comes from Om Kulthoum, Salama Hijazi, or Saleh Abd El Hayy (I know this will cause you, Abu A'laa and Fred to damn me, because I read your enthusiasm about the singing of those guys). I love Leh Ya Banafseg, but to be super honest about it, I don't see what's so special that SAH added to the song. We've been having a discussion about what Om Kulthoum added to El Awwela, and there's really something clear to my ears there as to what she added (particularly, now that we've heard three recordings). However, in the case of SAH and Leh Ya Banafseg, I don't see that.
Now, if we go back to the "categories" above, it seems to me you can tolerate a song for up to 30 minutes or so (that's usually where Zakariya's songs are).

Finally, in general, "brain work" is a compliment, but I feel in this context, and in calling Sunbati and Qassabji's work as "brain work", whereas Zakariya's is "tarab", there is injustice done to the first two's capabilities and styles. To me, several people write this as if to say that Zakariya was *genuine* in his music, whereas the "brain work" of the other two was really artificial stuff put together so that scholars write about it later. [By the way, this remark is not addressed to
you Najib. I'm just commenting on a remark that's becoming mainstream on the various forums. I know very well how much you appreciate these three composers, and naturally, that you have preferences.]

Very interesting discussion, and more interesting agreements/disagreements.

Best regards to all,
Luay

Najib
11-02-2007, 10:21
Mohsen, I loved what you wrote, and I think these days it's confession times for all of us :-)


Luay I adored what you wrote. You know it's amazing that we are becoming true friends through this electronic space and I am yet to meet any one of you.

Regarding Leyh ya banafsegh try to listen to it again and compare the repetitions of the same sentences of Salih and see the creative difference between them, also listen to 3abdu Saleh's magic Qanun in the piece.

Salamat

fredlag@noos.fr
11-02-2007, 11:44
@ Lu'ay

"Give something Wahab made that's as expressive as Adnaytani Bel-hagr!"

In private mails metween Abu Ala' and myself, we were indeed mentioning this song as a wonderful exception to (Farid's) rule and stated how much we both liked it. It's fully takht-compliant.
But of course, as far as Abd al-Wahhab is concerned, it's easy to quote two songs just as good : minka ya hagiru da'i and ya garat al-wadi. But I know I'm cheating, you meant modern ones. Well, here, you win, there is nothing in ABW's 1964-1975 production as good as this one. But he has brilliant phrases. Han el wedd is replete with it. Trouble is those works are light ones, the "complexity factor" of learned repertoire is absent, you can sing han el wedd under the shower, you simply cannot do the same with minka ya hagiru da'i.

"I personally don't like studio recordings, whether it comes from Om Kulthoum, Salama Hijazi, or Saleh Abd El Hayy (I know this will cause you, Abu A'laa and Fred to damn me, because I read your enthusiasm about the singing of those guys)"

That needs some historical perspective. let us agree for the sake of discussing that what you mean by concert is "live performance of a model", whereas studio recording is "plain model, without interaction with an audience and no attempt at developping".

1st : I agree that the listener's pleasure will only be produced by the live performance, but in some cases we have to do with what we have. You mentioned yourself adnaytani, which is a studio recording. We have to be content with studio "enti fakrani walla nasyani" or studio "gamal ed dunya", or studio "qaddeet hayati", and still, the beauty of the song is amazingly obvious, in spite that it's not a "performance" of the song but just an exposition of the raw material.

2nd : But defining Higazi, Hilmi or Safti's recordings as studio recordings simply doesn't work. Pre-1918 records *are* live performances — although this statement could be challenged for late adwar-s by Husni or Qabbani that are recorded by Safti and Zaki Murad, since those adwar-s were still too "young" and you feel in them that you hear Husni and Qabbani more than Safti or Zaki ; but this is *not* the case for the early ones of those composers, the ones that were not the property of record companies. See, the recording industry had only been there since 1903 and simply didn't know what to do with Egyptian art music. So the musicians and singers friends and some sammi3a went to the recording session (see Ali Jihad Racy's dissertation). The recording engineers must have been mad at them, wondering what they were here for. There were no "studios", just a closed room. And you'll never hear clapping hands simply because people did not manifest their appreciation at that time by clapping hands, this is obviously a westernization process that became standard in the post-war era.

You will notice there is nothing like a 4-side dor in the 1920s, and that's because the industry by then had imposed on artist a way of presenting their art in a concise unadorned version that was meant to be developped during concerts. But in pre-world war I recordings, it's not the case. Sound engineers were basically trying to squeeze a live wasla on 4-minute-per-side records. Hence the permanent "allah", "ya salam", "ah ya 3admi", "ya kutukutu" in the recordings, the genius of those guys needed this, they needed this audience (indeed some 10 people in the recording room). There was no such thing as a "studio version" of a song because this would have been an absurdity, songs were what singers made of them.

This "studio version" concept only appeared in the early 20s with taqatiq that were composed for the company. By late 20s and early 30s, it can be argued that even recorded adwar-s, like Umm Kulthum, are "studio versions", not actual performances. This is why I will be forever mad at the sitt for not recording "yom el hana" and others as a live version in the late 40s. But when you hear "el bolbol" by Manyalawi, what you get *is* a concert version, of course a 15 minute one instead of the probable 25 minute version in real life, but after all it's better than nothing.

And I will go further: this interaction between a primitive technique, that of the 78rpm, and this art may have saved us iddle repetitions of sentences, as denounced by Iskander Shalfun in his 1922 report on the state of Egyptian music, in which he fulminates against singers who repeat sentences over and over without changing them. To him this wad bad *performance*. Well, the 78 rpm demanded performances limited to 4x4:30 = 18 minutes, so singers like Higazi and Manyalawi simply made the most of it.

But go compare 2 recordings of the same song by the same artist in different company, you'll see they are different renditions, more obviously so with Hilmi. Simply compare, with you trained ear, the performances of Manyalawi and Asma l-Kumsariyya in El kamal fel melah (by the way she is really mazluma in comments, the 3 last minutes are a wonder, you have to listen to it full blast in a room, not just on the PC) , they will appear as live performances, and the same goes with the el-fu'ad habbak thread: see how Abu Dawud offers a totally personal performance and understanding of the composed canvas.

Please Lu'ay, just for a 3 minute test, listen in your room full blast to Asma from 9"40 until the end, and tell me if this is a studio version. Please do it.

أبو الغيث
11-02-2007, 11:47
يعني ما بتسدئو اديش انا مستمتع بالنقاش تبعكون !!!!!
Go ahead guys

kabh01
11-02-2007, 12:38
I am also enjoying this.

Is this exchange on the "NAKREEZ" mode Najib?

:D

luay
11-02-2007, 15:38
Najib: it's too bad for me that I haven't met any of members of this forum in person. Hopefully, that will happen one day, sooner rather than later.
As we all are saying, this is a discussion of personal tastes; I really find it very hard to be completely (or even close to completely) impartial or objective when it comes to music.

Fred: I will listen to Ms. Asma :-) [her full name is not very artistic :D ]

and you haven't heard of nafusa al-Bimbashiyya, Fatma el-Baqqala or Mahmud el-telegrafgi !
Fred

By the way, you and Abu A'laa are not very generous at all by choosing only one song of Farid's to be an exception (even though you didn't specify what it was an exception to, I guess you meant it was an "exception to his mediocre music" :confused: )

Regards to all, even those who don't like Sunbati :D

Luay

أبو علاء
11-02-2007, 19:48
This is getting too fast and too dense for me to catch up!
Let me first conclude my unfinished post of yesterday and we'll see what to react to the new "material" later.



... No, no hitman of course! But, I do think you're unfair to Sunbati in gereneral and to gaddidt in particular. Nobody equals Sunbati's suznak here except Zakariya in hulm and, yet, here the suznak portion is both extremely beautiful and so extensive (it starts with dana law nisiti-l-li kan...)
As for Baligh and Wahhab, I think you're overestimating my adversity against them. You already know the Wahhab I like. What you don't know is that I made my early classes with Baligh. I was first attracted by Arab music when I was hardly nine or ten years old mainly through Baligh compositions first for Halim (gana-l-hawa, 'ala hisbi wdad galbi, zayyi-l-hawa...) and Warda (mostly balash tifariq)!! The latter was the song of my first real love story. I bet, by now, it has entered the "classical" repertoire in the common Egyptian eyes ('idha'atu-l-'aghani included it a few days ago in a late nigh programme called hasibak li-t-tarab!).
I have to leave it here now. But, I'll come back to finish this post tomorrow. So, just hang on!






That was for Baligh. I was introduced to 'abdi-l-wahab at a later stage after I succeded in getting out of Baligh's grip and that of the love story that coincided with balash tifariq:) . But before Wahhab, and still through brother Halim, I discovered the already quieter works of Mugi and Tawil. 'abdi-l-wahab was the last link before a couple of names: 'iamam 'isa and Salih 'abdi-l-hay, who paved the way for Safti and co...
After going such a long way and besides the fact that there were such (distant) times when I used to be fond of Baligh or/and Wahhab, I kept in memory quite a good knowledge of the production of both men as well as I kept liking some of their works (up to the late seventies-early eighties when I was already fully immersed in Salih 'abdi-l-hay 'adwar and mawawil, I liked listening from time to time to such things as misiri-sh-shams (Baligh) and khafa-l-lah (wahhab). In one of his responses to Luay about Farid, Fred mentioned hani-l-widd. But, Wahhab produced much better stuff (shakli tani) and yes there's nothing in his fourties-sixties comparable to 'adhnaytani, but in a different style he produced such a beautiful thing as 'igri ya nil (I uploaded it long ago; please, listen to it, Luay!)...
Ok, but, come on, guys! With all his stuff, how far Baligh remains when compared to people like Mahmud Esh-shirif (habibi huwwa), 'ahmad Sidqi (qalu-l-gamal 'alwan, kasi-l-hana dayir, thalath nismat, ya 'ini fin qalbi...) and even such a relatively unknown name as 'izzat El-gahli! (on purpose, I overlooked Zakariya and Sunbati's works as well as anything of 'um kalthum).
I'll have to come back on two points: 'um kalthum songs composed by Wahhab and Baligh on the one hand and Farid on the other hand.

Hattouma
16-02-2007, 13:08
i enjoyed reading this discussion now ..oh i have so much to catch up with after 2 weeks away !

I love singing Siret el Hobb, my friends love to hear it from me, I learned it whilst falling in love with my girlfriend, and I sang it at our wedding party (so lucky that the girlfriend and my wife are the same person by the way :-) ). I don't have a problem with some nice melodic lines even if the poetry isn't that deep.


Me too najib ,song was one of several in the background of love with a girlfriend that became my wife as well (lucky indeed ....,but sometimes i wonder hahahaha :D ) , i do not not sing though ! I noticed also that this song is quite popular in Folk weddings in Egypt , will never forget a performance in a street wedding (wama adraka mahy afrah el-shawar' fil-qahera )me and couple of friends attended in my only visit to a neighborhood i don't advise anyone to come close too (el-zawiya el-hamra :)..Some of Baligh songs of that era mount to popular folk music status in Cairo ,fine BUT El-set choosing to widen her audience this way is and will stay controversial ..this is another point outside the discussion.

I am more like Najib as well in liking how the song builds up in Zakaria and one sees it going to a certain point ..more than Sunbaty ..who can get me bored more easily . I think i still need to listen more and learn more so i will keep it at this for now .

أبو علاء
20-11-2007, 20:41
The recording of gaddidti hubbak from the 1st of January 1959 concert (page 2 of this thread) has just been replaced by a cleaner version, an excellent one in fact, provided by kandis.

alffy74
22-11-2007, 23:06
Very interesting discussion indeed, and I'm delighted to read such diverse opinions. After all, life would be so boring if we all had the same opinion and taste.

For me, an average listener who enjoys tarab without being knwoeldgeable about maqam, structure, distribution etc..., and I want to emphasize that I am quite representative of the general listener, I react mostly to the melodic line when it comes appreciating and evaluating a composition.

I always believed that to be fair in comparisons, one should compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I believe we don't give justice to either Zakariyya or Sumbati by comparing them. This reminds me of what Shawqi (if I'm not mistaken) said about comparing him with Hafez Ibrahim: "jayyidouhou ajwad min jayyidi, wa sayyi2ouhou aswa2 min sayyi2i".

it is obvious to me that the 2 great composers have different inclinations. Zakariyya is more "intuitive" while Sumbati is more "intellectual". Yet, when you listen to their work, you can intellectually analyze Zakariyya's compositions and react "intuitively" to Sumbati's. I guess this is where the genuis of both men reside. Which gives us a more "tarabic" feeling is simply a personal taste.

In debating the style of these two great composers, we should not overlook the lyrics as mentioned previously. I think the duo Bayram/Zakariyya is a match made in heaven, as is the duo Rami/Sumbati, or even Shawqi/Sumbati (even if Shawqi died before Sumbati composed those eternal dinuyyat et watanniyat). I will take the opportunity here to comment on the role of the lyricist in creating the melodic mood for the composer. It is generally agreed that Sumbati's was more inspired by Qasabgi than by Zakariyya. However, for the average listener like myself, Shams el Assil can be easily attributed to Zakariyya because I was almost sure when I heard this song for the first time even though I didn't know it was Bayram who wrote it. So, in my modest opinion, the compositional style in our Arabic music relies heavily on the lyrics, and different styles can arise from the same composer, even if certain particular traits remain well defined. But the greatest phenomenon lies in the person of Umm Kulthum, who was able to sing two different styles with an unmatched excellence and to make both styles her own by adding her personal touch to them.

"Ana fi intizarak", "el awwila fel gharam", "hulm", "ahl el hawa", can be amazing songs by themselves, but they wouldn't be the same if performed by someone other than Umm Kulthum. Zakariyya's melodic line is open, allowing a genius like Umm Kulthum to add to it and prolong its tarabic effect (el awwila fil gharam is the ultimate example of this)...so it's safe to say that Umm Kulthum contributes greatly to embellish Zakarriya's music.

On the other hand, without vocal interference, listening to the melodies created by Sumbati can get deep in your soul. Some have mentioned the melody preceding "yalli hawak fil fou2ad" (gaddedt 7obbak). I will mention the melody preceding "kan fagran bassiman fi mouqlataya" (Zikrayat), or the one preceding "Arou7 le meen w min 7a yisma3 nidaya" (Arou7 le meen), or the one preceding "sa3ban 3allya gafak" (hagartak), or "ayna mi 3ayni 7abibon" (Al atlal), and say that I swing of tarab upon hearing them, and sometimes wish they would last forever. Yes, it's true that Sumbati's compositions are not as open to improvisations as Zakariyya's, but I would argue- and God help me from the wrath of many:) - that Sumbati's melodic can compensate for that by being more beautiful when they stand on their own, without Umm kulthum's additions, although when she does add to them, they become even better.

I would like to end by saying how lucky we are to have been blessed by such great artists, who, with God's intention, lived in the same place at the same time and gave and still give us the zenith of artistic enjoyment and pleasure.

SALAM!

Alfred

luay
22-11-2011, 04:58
At some point, I thought we had settled on the assumption that the commercial version of Gaddedte Hobbak Leh was taken from the 1959 version. I was just now listening to the commercial version (which I haven't done for a long, long time), and I have a revelation: I believe the commercial version of Gaddedte Hobbak Leh is a studio recording, with applause added to it! Neither the lady nor the musicians make a single mistake, there are no repetitions,...
I can't believe after listening to this song for almost 30 years now, this is the first time I feel this is a studio recording.

What do others think?
Luay

أبو علاء
22-11-2011, 16:27
At some point, I thought we had settled on the assumption that the commercial version of Gaddedte Hobbak Leh was taken from the 1959 version. I was just now listening to the commercial version (which I haven't done for a long, long time), and I have a revelation: I believe the commercial version of Gaddedte Hobbak Leh is a studio recording, with applause added to it! Neither the lady nor the musicians make a single mistake, there are no repetitions,...
I can't believe after listening to this song for almost 30 years now, this is the first time I feel this is a studio recording.

What do others think?

Where can I find the commercial version or, at least, the one you mean if there is more than one commercial version?

luay
23-11-2011, 05:18
Abu A'laa,
I'll digitize and upload it tomorrow (or send it to you).
Luay

luay
05-07-2013, 00:50
Hytham,
As this section's index indicates, there are TWELVE (12) versions of this song on the forum. Why are you uploading these ones?
Are they of better sound quality?

Luay

Hytham
05-07-2013, 01:09
Hytham,
As this section's index indicates, there are TWELVE (12) versions of this song on the forum. Why are you uploading these ones?
Are they of better sound quality?
Luay

Well, yes you can say that they are, even when I only saw 6 of these files around here. I could not claim to be this effervescently adroit at reading the whole of the contents of this forum in such a record speed
All in all, I know redundancy and repetitiveness are much frowned upon around ZAW; so forgive my atrocious intrusion into your musical synapses, Luay

So, and in hindsight... Only got a 50-50 on the novelty of the files I uploaded earlier. To wit, the Lebanon concert is not found around the forum (I revised the index), and the Premiere is oddly enough, absent, too. The other two (Azbakiyyah, and the Damascus concerts) are already uploaded. Hope that wouldn't be much trouble, or else I could easily take these two down

H.H

luay
05-07-2013, 02:33
Hytham,

No need to get defensive; I was asking a simple question.
The index lists 12 versions that are easy to access and check. The premiere of this song was in 1951, and is available (it's listed as "unknown date and place". As for the Lebanon one, it is also available; it's the 25 August 1955.
Anyway, still your versions could be of better quality and we'd be happy to replace the existing ones with yours, and hence my question.

Luay

Hytham
05-07-2013, 10:10
Hytham,

No need to get defensive; I was asking a simple question.
The index lists 12 versions that are easy to access and check. The premiere of this song was in 1951, and is available (it's listed as "unknown date and place". As for the Lebanon one, it is also available; it's the 25 August 1955.
Anyway, still your versions could be of better quality and we'd be happy to replace the existing ones with yours, and hence my question.

Luay

Not at all, dear Luay: I wasn't getting defensive per se, as much advocating the necessity of availing the recordings for what they are: Recordings. For example, the Lebanon one as you've put it is "one" I have dated as 13-5-1955 so this is a bit confusing, to say the least. Also, when the Premier—which is considered the most important recording, historically-speaking—gets no chronological treatment (read: date, place) then this leaves a large cavity for obtrusive speculation among the users here who cannot afford the laxity of time, and effort to download every file, and listen thoroughly to individualised tracks to determine which is which and what's what from what's not

I see in this forum a very ardent spirit for authentication and this is absolutely a god-sent when it comes to Umm's repertoire: a rather messy, unidentified, confusion-laden musical trove that needs some people of your ilk to come and dot its i's and comma its sentences with care and flair

Thanks for the reply

H.H

أبو علاء
05-07-2013, 12:22
أخي الكريم هيثم، سأكتب بالعربيّة لأنّها اللّغة التي أتقن بين لغتي المنتدى.
باختصار وتبسيط شديد : القراءة مطلوبة قبل الكتابة في هذا المنتدى ؛ ومراجعة الفهارس والملفّات المرفوعة عند الاقتضاء مطلوبة قبل رفع ملفّات جديدة، وإذا ما كان الكاتب أو الرّافع لا يجد متّسعا من الوقت للقراءة أو المراجعة والاستماع فلا داعي للكتابة ولا للرّفع ولا ضير في الاكتفاء بالمادّة السمعيّة الموجودة ؛ كما لا جدوى من رفع ستّ حفلات في نفس الموضوع لأنّ الغرض الأوّل ليس جمع التسجيلات وتكديسها دونما نظر أو تدبّر ناهيك عن الاستماع ؛ وأخيرا هذا المنتدى هو منتدى لا متجر أو مرفق خدمات بمعنى أنّه ليس مكانا تقدّم سلع/موادّ معيّنة بمقابل أو بالمجّان على مقدّمها كلّ الواجبات وللمستفيد منها الحقوق، فجميعنا ها هنا مقدّم ومستفيد في آن، كلّ يقدّم ما عنده ويشرح ويبيّن على قدر استطاعته، ومن لم يكن عنده ما يقدّم البتّة فلا حرج عليه وحسبه أن يجد ما يفيده، ولنا جميعا نفس الحقوق وعلينا نفس الواجبات ؛ وإذا ما وجدت تسجيلا كتب عنه أنّه مجهول التاريخ والمكان فلأنّ الذي رفعه لا يملك تلك المعلومات ولأنّه تسجيلات حفلات أمّ كلثوم أو أيّ مطرب عربيّ قديم آخر لا توجد مبوّبة في رفوف دوّن على كلّ منها جميع ما يخصّه من بيانات ولا وجود فيما أعلم لامرئ واحد أوتي علمها جميعا ؛ وما على من يجد ملفّا غفلا من تلك البيانات وكان هو عليما بها إلاّ أن يتكرّم بإضافتها إن شاء، مع العلم أنّ لؤي هو المشرف على هذا القسم ومخاطبك هو مدير هذا المنتدى.

Hytham
05-07-2013, 12:58
I understand, sir and know and comprehend thus far, but still in the realm of musicology, one should adhere to a strict methodology of documenting musical archives from a historical point of view, and to allocate the necessary dates of music recordings done by master singers like the late, Umm Kalthoum herself

I am not trying to chop logic here, but as a new-comer, I hold nothing but total respect for the older members of this forum

H.H

أبو علاء
05-07-2013, 14:13
still in the realm of musicology, one should adhere to a strict methodology of documenting musical archives from a historical point of view, and to allocate the necessary dates of music recordings done by master singers like the late, Umm Kalthoum herself


Unfortunately, I'm not a musicologist neither is Luay. If you're one then this will be an added asset to this forum and this will be all the more so if you think you're in a position to identify with scientific precision every single recording of 'um kalthum around. In this case, your help would be most appreciated to fill in the gaps of our modest and most imperfect knowledge. Suffice it to post your corrections and/or complementary information in the relevant threads. Needless to say my other remarks still stand. So, please take the pain of checking the index and when necessary the already posted recordings and make the necessary changes to your post, deleting the redundant files and possibly making a new thread with the ones that are really new to this section!

Hytham
05-07-2013, 14:23
Yes, indeed Mr. Abu-Ala'a: I am already reading with thoroughness the forum's sections, and trying to affront all issues discussed in as much speed as possible

Your forum is one of its kind, and that's what's suffice to say, or mention

Heart thanks

H.H

أبو علاء
05-07-2013, 15:03
I forgot to add that we (now) strongly discourage the upload of highly compressed files (if this wasn't also the case in the past) as we prefer to preserve as much as possible the good sound quality when it exists, and we have increased the allowed file size accordingly.