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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : Tunis Concerts : Enta Omri



fredlag@noos.fr
06-02-2007, 11:20
هذه الحفلة لا تخرج عن الحدود التي وضعناها لهذا القسم من المنتدى
صوت أم كلثوم عند أدائها لإنت عمري في استاد المنزه بتونس لم يكن في أوجه، ولكن حاولت أن تعوض عن التعب والإرهاق الواضحين بالارتجال الزخرفي وشيء من المجهود في قسم
الليالي الحلوة والشوق والمحبة من زمان القلب شايلهم عشانك
وكذلك الختام مؤثر إذ تبدو وكأنها لا تريد أن تقفل فتطيل المذهب إلى أقصى ما يمكن
لمن يفضل، مثلي، الارتجالات الموقعة على الوحدة / شفتتلي، حفلات الستينات مخيبة للأمل إذ أن الارتجال فيها غالبا ارتجال مرسل يقتصر على تصوير النغم إلى العقد الأعلى، أللهم في شبه الارتجال المجهّز في يا مسهرني، وألاحظ كذلك التدهور الذي حصل في إمكانيات أم كلثوم الصوتية بين
1964 و
1968
لكن مع ذلك، لا يخلو هذا التسجيل من لحظات جميلة، كتنويعها في الحلية في كلمة «التقاها» في الغصن الثاني

أشك كثيرا في أنها الحفلة الكاملة، مدتها
59 دقيقة
ولكن الجودة مرضية إن لم تكن ممتازة
الأصل هو كاسيت تجاري تونسي،
شركة سوكا K002
وسرّعت التسجيل قليلا بعد الترقيم إذ وجدته زائد البطء إلى درجة غير طبيعية

بالنسبة إلى حفلات تونس، الصيغة التي في المنتدى لحفلة فكروني غير مقبولة والصوت مشوه فيها إلى درجة تجعل الاستماع مستحيلا. لدي تسجيل معقول الجودة ولكن غير كامل ، ناقص التقسيم على القانون، وآخر مشوه ومطوّل ورديء الصوت ولكن فيه التقسيم. لمن لديه نسخة جيدة وكاملة أن يسبقني إلى تغيير الملف المرفوع
أما عن حفلة الأطلال، فلا حاجة إلى رفعها إذ لا شيء فيها يذكر.
لمن يستطيع أن يحدد التاريخ الدقيق أن يفعل ذلك مشكورا

Hakem
06-02-2007, 11:37
يا صباح الفل
Dear Fred,
This is wonderful, I am really enjoying it. Despite I am not a fan of Abdel-Wahab's compositions to the Lady, but Inta Omri has a different feel, perhpas we can call it the "soundtrack" of pre-1967 Egypt.

By the way, I haven't got the chance to thank you, I'm really enjoying the early century music you have been featuring, and thanks to you I am introduced to it. Your passion, information, and contributions are highly appreciated.
Hakem.

fredlag@noos.fr
06-02-2007, 14:33
@ Hakem :
You're very welcome.
When Manyalawi died in 1911, he was either 68 years old (Izz al-Arab Ali) or 61 (Qantandi Rizq). Meaning he was the equivalent of Umm Kulthum (born circa 1900) in the sixties in terms of vocal capacities. What he does in al-Fu'ad habbak is to be compared to what she does in, say, this concert, or in the ending Sunbatian period. See the huge difference: whereas she was forced to change dramatically the type of music she sang in the early sixties in order to survive in the competition, he was probably singing in 1911 as he was singing in 1880 (unless I underestimate the transformation induced by the long adwar of uthman, Husni and Qabbani), although with a presumably altered voice. The whole UK generation could have been singing "3ala ruhi ana l-gani", for by embracing a populist vision of music, they ultimately brought on themselves this need to embrace the latest ill-understood modernist trends.
But I would advocate (Abu Ala' will have a heart attack) that after decades of ridiculous westernized compositions, Abd al-Wahhab had integrated this westernization correctly to produce acceptable compositions in the sixties, whereas Sunbati's attempts at "modernism" are worse failures. I mean that Wahhab's kalsoulmic period is altogether much preferable to his mid 40s to mid 50s production, whereas Sunbati in min agl 3aynayk or Aqbala l-layl is so far from the brilliance of Ya Zalemni... Then again, there's the problem of Rami in classical poetry, in which I must admit I find him really weak, lacking depth.

omkolthom
06-02-2007, 15:27
السلام عليكم
شكرا على هذه الحفلة
اقامت أم كلثوم حفلتين فى تونس بقصر المنتزه فى مايو 1968 غنت فى احداهما الاطلال وفكرونى
وفى الاخرى بعيد عنك وانت عمرى

fredlag@noos.fr
06-02-2007, 16:07
عزيزي أم كلثوم، اختلطت عندك الأمور بين قصور الاسكندرية وملاعب تونس، فالمكان التي غنت فيه أم كلثوم هو ستاد المنزة، نفس الملعب الذي يتنافس فيه الزمالك والترجي...
ولكن ما كنت أريده هو اليوم من شهر مايو 1968 ومعرفة أإذا في حوزة أحد منا تسجيل يكون في آن كاملا وواضحا للحفلات الثلاث الجيدة

ovide
06-02-2007, 16:45
فعلاً الحفلة جميلة
والختام مؤثر بشكل كبير
ولو كان لي قلم هوغو لجعلت منه رمزاً للصراع الأخير بين إرادة الإنسان وبين الزمن، ماراً ومقوضاً،
mais n'est pas hugo qui veut!!

luay
06-02-2007, 16:47
I, too, have to be rushed to the hospital with a heart attack and severe brain damage :-)
When I made the mistake of uploading Maadarsh Ansak, you gave me so much hard time, Fred, and of course, others joined the choir :-)
And now, what we get? Gaddedte Hobbak Leh is typical, and Wahab's stuff in the 60's is
nice!!!! Wahab began a long journey of deterioration and free fall in the early to mid 40's,
which lasted for 40 years, and was the main contributor to where the Arabic music scene
has got today (his songs Khay Khay or Fein Tareea'ak Fein are not better than what Nancy
A'jram sings!). Sunbati's Aqbala-Llaylu is definitely not Ya Dhalimni, nor is it Hallet Layali-l-Amar, but it has real music in it, whereas Wahab's music for Om Kulthoum was the same stuff he did (successfully, unfortunately) with Halim, which had one goal: to "please" the young generation of listeners, who can't understand or appreciate something like El Awwela Fel Gharam. Do you really believe Leilet Hobb is a song? To me, it sounds like a collection of
pieces, glued together artificially, and then some lyrics were found and added to it.
I've been reading your comments about how great her 1968 performances in Tunis, Morocco, etc., were, and I would like to very respectfully disagree. Yes, she improvised a lot and elongated Ba'eed A'nnak to 90 minutes, but one minute of her Damascus improvisations in Ya Dhalimni is worth the complete concert that she had in 1968. The issues wasn't her voice in the 50's vs. the late 60's when it comes to this. I watched Ba'eed A'nnak (Tunis) on video. The audience wasn't listening. It was chaotic, and they were basically shouting and screaming every time she said "Ah"! The same goes for Enta Omri, Fakkarouni (and again, not only did I listen to them, but I also watched them on video a long time ago). I don't think the quality of improvisations in these songs (whatever concert they were from) gets close to what she did with the 1952 Raqq El Habib, the Damascus concert of Ya Dhalimni, the Ahl El Hawa that Abu A'laa had uploaded, etc.
And once again, yes, there was a huge difference in her vocal capabilities of the two Om Kulthoum's I'm talking about here, but in my humble musically-uneducated opinion, this wasn't the main issue. The main issue was that the 1968 audience would get aroused by playing with the "ha" in "Eltaa'aha" of Enta Omri (which has absolutely not tarab in it). Again, watching these concerts, the audience was chaotic, and shouted or reacted every time they heard the "tablah" (darbukka, or whatever it's called). Wahab capitalized on this, and made the tablah an instrument equal to the qanun and violin in all of his songs. What was the result? the audience reacted with craziness every time they heard it. Between Wahab's and Baligh's "contributions" to Om Kulthoum's repertoire, Baligh's Ansak had more expressive and beautiful stuff than all of Wahab's. I honestly and without anything to do with my liking or disliking of Wahab, and having been listening to Om Kulthoum since I was 7 years old, I can NOT say "ah" to one line in Wahab's music for Om Kulthoum. I say a million "ah's" when I hear Wahab in Meen A'dhebbak or Sekette Leh Ya Lisani (so it's not Wahab in general).

Of course, we have huge disagreements here, and you can ignore all of the above, since this a personal opinion.

Best regards,
Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
06-02-2007, 17:12
@ Lu'ay :
Salamtak men el-'aah (I mean of course UK's 'aah in those late concerts).
I would tend to agree with you that one minute of Ya Zalemni is worth most of Fakkaruni, but I will not follow you in disparaging the whole performance. See, the "ilta'aaha" trick she does in Enta Omri is a good example of tarab-ic rythmic ornements in a cyclic musical sentence, creating a feeling of suspension.
What she does here is very much the same trick she does in changing the nidaak qafla in "we ruhi tesma3 nidaak" of Hayyart Qalbi, only almost 10 years later, with much diminished invention and vocal force. I actually feel tarab in it, if tarab means this ability to create a tension and feeling of expectation in the listener, who will concentrate on the least detail of the melodic sentence. But yes, I agree it has nothing to do with sunbatian age concerts of the 50s.
The only thing we disagree about is the value of late Sunbatis like Aqbal al-layl, that I see in no way superior to Wahhab's or Baligh's compositions of that age... As for the "patchwork" aesthetics of 60s songs, I couldn't agree more with you.
See, we're almost on the same side...

luay
06-02-2007, 17:28
See, we're almost on the same side...

That's amazing: the way we write make it seem as if we disagree on every single word :D :confused:

I actually think Men Agle A'ynayk is Sunbati's worst composition for Om Kulthoum. To the contrary, I really like Aqbala-Llaylu. I find the part of "Bayna Maden Lam Yadaa'li Ghayra Dhikra.." very beautiful.

One more agreement between us is Rami's classical poetry. I can't call it weak, because I don't have the qualifications to make such an assessment, but if I compare the poems he wrote and Om Kulthoum sang to a verse of poetry like "Men Ayye A'hden Fe-l-Qura Tatadaffaqo Wa Be-Ayye Kaffen Fel Madaaene Toghdiqu" of Shawqi, I think Rami would lose big time. I find Shawqi's description in "Wal Ardo Toghriquha Fayahya-l-Mughraqo" one of the most beautiful I've ever heard. Usually, drowning is associated with death. Here he brilliantly associated it with life!!

But, still, I find something like Kayfa Marrat A'la Hawaki-l-Qulubu very nice.

Best regards,
Luay

أبو الغيث
06-02-2007, 17:58
الأستاذ فريد : الف شكر على هذا التسجيل , بصراحة هذه ليست المرة الاولى التي أستمع اليها لهذا التسجيل , ومثل كل مرة (صالحت فيك ايامي , سامحت فيك الزمن) تؤثر فيي تأثير عجيب غريب
وخصوصا في هذا التسجيل وكأن ام كلثوم كانت تدرك وتعرف حق المعرفة بأنها غير ام كلثوم قبل 20 سنة , فأرادت أن تبرز هذا المقطع بأجمل حلة وخصوصا عندما نرى الأحساس الذي تغنيه فيه ,
كما نقول في الشام ( من قلب محروق ) :D .
البياتي في هذا المقطع أخاذ , وأداء ام كلثوم لهذه (الشقفة ) رائع , والختام مؤثر لأبعد الحدود
ولأخذ العلم فاني أتفق معك على تفضيل الارتجالات المؤداة على الوحدة (like you ) :D

kabh01
06-02-2007, 19:00
الواقع أثبت بأن ألحان عبد الوهاب لأم كلثوم كانت أكثر لتحقيق أهداف سياسيه من الأهداف الفنيه. الرسم البياني لألحان عبد الوهاب في أغاني أم كلثوم هو تنازلي اذا ما قورنت بعبد الوهاب الثلاثينات والأربعينات.

أعني من كان يظن بأن الغيتار وما لف لفه سوف يلعب مع التخت الشرقي لأم كلثوم؟

ولكن كما يقال: "لكل حصان كبوه" ولكن الحصان الأصيل يصحو من كبوته وينطلق الى المقدمه بمساعدة خيال ماهر وحريف ومن يكون هذا سوى ست الستتات؟

كانت رحمها الله المنقذه لهكذا ألحان بقوة صوتها و روعة أداءها و حضورها المنقطع النظير. ربما البعض يعتقد بأن صوتها تراجع في أواخر الستينات و أوائل السبعينات و لكن أستطيع القول بأن نضوج صوتها في سن تجاوز ال65 (وهو سن التقاعد الرسمي عندنا ) أعطاه ابعادا جديده و مميزه فلكل عصر أوان و لكل مقام مقال و زمن آخر و ربما كانت الكلمة أعلى مقاماً وأكثر استقامة
ووقعاً ونرددها حتى الآن على أمل أن لكل مقام مقال و بدون أدنى شك لا يبقى على ما هو الا هو

ِ

omkolthom
06-02-2007, 19:52
عفوا على الخطأ وشكرا على التوضيح
بخصوص الايام فكانت فى يوم9 و12 لكن لا اعرف اى الحفلتين التى غنت فيها هذه الاغنية

أبو علاء
06-02-2007, 21:08
@ But I would advocate (Abu Ala' will have a heart attack) that after decades of ridiculous westernized compositions, Abd al-Wahhab had integrated this westernization correctly to produce acceptable compositions in the sixties, whereas Sunbati's attempts at "modernism" are worse failures. I mean that Wahhab's kalsoulmic period is altogether much preferable to his mid 40s to mid 50s production, whereas Sunbati in min agl 3aynayk or Aqbala l-layl is so far from the brilliance of Ya Zalemni...


Thank god we're neither in the socialist international toward the end of the nineteenth century nor in some mosque somewhere in Arabia sometime in the seventh century. Otherwise, this discussion would have brought about a breakup similar to the ones that ensued on such occasions!:) If I haven't had a heart attack, Fred, that's because I've become acquainted enough with your astounding inconsistencies.:)
More seriously, I wonder whether there would be any use to pursuing this kind of debate. I will not dwell much on the aesthetic grounds (or the lack thereof) that led you to appreciate, even though to different extents and from different viewpoints, Manyalawi, Hilmi, Hamuli, Qabbani on the one hand, and Wassouf, the late Wahhab and Baligh on the other hand, while disliking and depreciating Sunbati in full. I know each of us has his own incongruities or, at least, entertains his own pantheon, which makes such colourful pictures as to allow names of the former group to coexist with Karim Mahmud, Huriyah Hasan, 'ahmad Sidqi and Mahmud Shirif while rejecting almost anything coming from Farid (in my own case). I also think all of us find it easy to try and theoricise what is basically nothing else than the produce of our subjective artistic taste and I guess I'm not an exception to this general rule.
This, said, I seriously doubt you can present us with a credible aesthetic analysis to demonstrate that 'aqbala-l-laylu was a lamentable failure in that very field where 'inta 'umri proved to be a brilliant success!!
To end up with a word of peace in a sort of Munich 1938 atmosphere, I'll say the parts I omitted in quoting you are the ones on which I can't agree more. Such comments are better suited to the brilliant scholar musicologist I appreciate so much in you.:)

fredlag@noos.fr
06-02-2007, 21:43
Although, as you point, there is not necessarily a real consistency in my comments, I will try to find a common trail, a sort of pattern, hoping what I will write will make some sense, just a little bit, just an atom.
I think the key word is "pretense". Living up to what you sell.

- I do not consider post 1964 UK music to be Arabic art music. I like it, that's very different, and that's all ; exactly as I like (gasp), let us avoid names, western pop songs. But I will never ever pretend they're western art music. They're just "fun", they're roller coasters.
- Contrary to you and Lu'ay, I'm not convinced either that 1950s Uk songs are all "art music", and some of it already dangerously teethers on the side of entertainment repertoire.
- What makes me able to like this Wahab, Baligh, Mogi production is that I don't put any hopes in it. I don't feel inside myself "oh what a shame! this is commercial music sung by a fantastic art music interpret", I just dissociate this from ana fe entezarak's and hallet layali's Umm Kulthum, as if it were something else.
- I am perfectly convinced that she and her composers and a large part of the public never consciously admitted that they were playing a totally different game, but I am alos sure that deep down inside, they had some feeling they were beyharragu
- What always bugs me with Sunbati is pretense in music, whereas Wahhab is only pretense in public image and discourse, posing as the mugaddid a3zam, but he is perfectly aware that he is a clown and his music tells us so.
- to make it clearer (and more shocking), what makes enta omri more acceptable to me than men agl 3aynayk, is what makes Nancy Ajram and Hakim more acceptable than Majda al-Rumi and Kazem al-Saher : the total lack of real pretention. Enta omri is trashy commercial music, unashamed, unabashed, and thus palatable. It yells "let's rock the old lady in dark glasses". It plays with her. Whereas late sunbati's are basically the same trash, but musically want to convey another message, those tunes say : "hey, this is musiqa raziina raaqiya". But they're just like a mu7sana labsa badlet raqs. Well, with Wahhab and Baligh she's a 2-buck-wh... with a belly dance outfit and it makes sense.
- UK had hardly any voice left in the 1965-1970 period. Imagine what a disaster a performance of Raqq el-Habib would have been in Tunis. People would have laughed. She was an ambitious woman, she did the only thing left to her : ride the wave. And what I like is that among this disaster, some great moments can be heard. Lu'ay says that 1 minute of Ana fe entezarak is superior to the whole of Fakkaruni Tunis. Of course he's right, because he is speaking in terms of pure musicologic value and invention. But in those minutes of late songs in whicvh she desperatly tries to squeez out some tarab, she never completely fails, she allows something to happen, an echo, and this faint echo deeply moves me...

traces of sense ?

أبو علاء
06-02-2007, 22:36
I understand your approach, at least the part making a clear distinction between art music and shear entertainement or "fun". It's just that I can't share it, but this is my problem. By the way, I've never said that all the 5os staff was art music. Actually, I think you are the one who made so clear to us and in a such convincing way that none of it is, assuming we mean by art music nahdha music or something closely linked to it and produced along the same aesthetic line (I hope I didn't misread you). Your parallel between the lady and Manyalawi is such a compelling demonstration of the radical break between the two eras.
Now, I can't dismiss your approach simply because mine is different. I think each of us can safely enough stick to his without implying one is wrong or the other is closer to truth. What's truth in art? If there's one thing in which I think you're wrong, that is your personal "reading" of Wahhab and Sunbati's respective musical (state of) mind. I, personally, fail to see that pretense you see in the work of the latter. Maybe he's less frivolous than the other, not as much self conscious as to think people will swallow whatever he would give them just because it's His, less opportunistic (or, at least, not as much as Wahhab). But, certainly not as much vain as your comments imply.
P.S. I noticeed with relief your substituting min 'agli 'aynayka to 'aqbala-l-layl in our argument. The former is a mediocre copy of the latter (you'll remember my "theory" of Sunbati's copies as well as I hope you're aware of my own assessment of Sunbati as compared to Wahhab, Zakariya and Qasabgi).

luay
06-02-2007, 23:02
Actually, when I read your comments, Fred, I had a similar reaction to that of Abu A'laa, before I read his, and that is: what you said makes sense, except that there is so much speculation there. In some other thread in which Abu A'laa (if I'm not mistaken) uploaded
a song composed by Sunbati for Sabah, he commented about Sunbati's seriousness, even
when collaborating with a singer like Sabah. The point was that if we have evidence of anything, it's Sunbati's seriousness towards his work and the music he produced. Towards the end of his life he composed for Mayyada (Saa'et Zaman), Warda (La Taqulli Daa'a Hobbi), etc. I don't think he was pretending to be serious in any of these songs; it's just his style! Plus, Al-Atlal came 2 years after Enta Omri. Is Al-Atlal a trashy song? On the other hand, Wahab never gave the impression he was composing "light" music, nor do critics talk about him that way. The glorification of Wahab among all composers in the Arab world is unparalleled anywhere else!

Finally, please watch your language when you talk about Om Kulthoum; what is that 2-buck thing? :D :D :D

Luay

Hakem
07-02-2007, 13:52
@ Hakem :
You're very welcome.
When Manyalawi died in 1911, he was either 68 years old (Izz al-Arab Ali) or 61 (Qantandi Rizq). Meaning he was the equivalent of Umm Kulthum (born circa 1900) in the sixties in terms of vocal capacities.

Interesting point, thank you Fred. I will go back and spend some time listening properly to el-Manyalawi. This school is like wine, you have to aquire the taste for it :)

Salamat!

ovide
07-02-2007, 15:52
this debate is quite interresting

but my feeling is that we are leaking concepts to go ahead on firm bases
i mean how can we develop this "pretency" concept?
what about melodic comparaison?? etc?

i fully agree woth Frederic in almost all what he wrote here
and i really enjoy Oum in this concert, i admire here courage, and will,
but are those "musical" judgementes?

also for the baligh or wassouf melodies
yes there is some wonderful lines there
and on the strict melodic level, there are some melodies that are more attractive and rich that a lot of the old school stuff

but it is difficult to have a "scientific" judgement about comparaison between two melodies
we need concepts here

same is for frederic preference to rythmic improvisations and not adlib ones
or for najib and Mohsen "makamic animality" that does not correspond to some of Abdel hay hilmi works
does it means that the exploration of the same makam is less "tarabic" or poorer than the slides between makams?

last note: abdel wahab and baligh made a lot of patchwork
that is fully true, but in the same "paragraphe" or the same part, it is realy fluid and consistant. it is just that we are not able to do "symphonic" structure to do a 1h song fully constructed in a solid way
even sunbati, in my sense, couldn't do it (exeception perhaps roubaiyyat)
Zakariya was much better in this, but it is because he had always the same wonderful "mood"

at least, and other than hoping your forgivness to my really poor english, i hope that you will consider that i am inviting to debate, again, about the theoretical line and concepts that we should use
ta3biriyah wa tatribiyah are really poor
and technical stuff isn't abstract enough to do such comparaisons between old school, new one, and post-new nancy ajram that fred seems to like a lot (hoping his judgement isn't influenced by other thing than here "songs" ;)

TruePharaoh21
08-02-2007, 06:28
I feel the need to participate in this thread, though I hope not to offend any one. I'm sure you all are better versed than I am in the various songs Om Kolthoum has sang over the years. As a person who plays the oud, I wish to at least impart some sort of musical observations that I've made. Again, I do not wish to offend anyone.

Musically, in regards to Zakariya Ahmad, I feel as though he composes the most with heart. That is to say, when you hear a composition of his, you feel what he felt when he composed it. By means of melody, his are quite simple (though, of course, filled with much passion). I believe one of the reasons that we see a great deal of 6arab come out from Om Kolthoum when singing one of his compositions is that he seems to have given her a great deal of musical freedom. If one plays an instrument along with her in any of her songs, they will notice that she adheres to the actual composition only a fraction of the time, while a great deal of the song becomes how she feels in response to the composition at the time. This, of course, lets us see the greatest side of Om Kolthoum. I believe we must also attribute her age to some of this, as she was more capable to perform those heart-wrenching moments on a regular basis when she was younger. Some will cite Howa Sahih in response to this. While Howa Sahih is unbelievably great, we should look towards any one of the songs that he composed for her decades before, such as Ana Fi Intezarak, where we see such a great deal of 6arab coming from her. On this point, though, I would like to say that the concert of Howa Sahih in Morocco showcases this sort of musical dialogue between composer and singer quite excellently, which can be attributed to Zakariya's giving her musical freedom, and of course, Om Kolthoum taking it.

Sunbati, to me, is the epitome of balance in feeling and theoretical composition. Learning a song composed by Sunbati often brought about learning new maqamat for me (e.g. Tarz Nawin in the conclusion of the verses of Hagartak, or Sikah baladi in Arooh Le Meen). Sunbati was indeed, as was mentioned above, quite serious about his compositions. Aside from the maqam changes he employs, the rhythmical changes he makes in his compositions are astounding. This can be very clearly seen in his own taqsims on the oud, where his risha will change "beats," so to speak. To me, this confirms that Sunbati, too, composed from his feelings more than perhaps we give him credit for. He is technical, yes, but that often adds to the beauty of things. Aqbal el Leil was cited above. Aqbal el Leil, as my knowledge goes, was not accepted by the general public for many years as one of her "great" songs. It has a flavor different than any other composition I've heard in arabic music, but to do so does not necessarily mean that he eradicates the beauty of the music from the past. Rather, I believe it shows his versatility to be able to compose such a different kind of song and still have it become successful. Let's see something like that happen today, where (I'm sure you will all agree) most of the songs sound quite close to each other in their progression.

I've seen Baligh and Wahab grouped with one another many times here, and I would like to comment on them. Yes, some of the compositions of Wahab for Om Kolthoum were not the best, but let us take his overall progression in music into account. If we examine a Western classical music composer, Beethoven for example, we'll notice that there are quite large differences in his compositional styles from the beginning of his life to the end, as well as between one song to the next. Some compositions were "crowd-pleasers," but while some may see this as a negative quality, notice that the compositions were great nonetheless and have withstood the test of time. Wahab, too, can be seen in a similar fashion. Indeed, his style changed much over the years, but a great composer cannot remain stagnant in a changing environment. Baligh will do this as well, but I feel he attributes more feeling to his compositions (Hobb Eih, for example). Rhythmically, this song has some great qualities. In considering maqamat, he truly made use of some great ones (Nakriz in Ba'ed Annak, for example).

Om Kolthoum, though mentioned last here, should be considered first and foremost. She had the option to accept or to deny any composition. As she aged, she could not do what she was capable of in her younger days... which perhaps puts more of a weight on the composers to produce great songs that stand alone without her own "dialogue" with the song. We know that Om Kolthoum was quite strong-willed as well and would not accept something that she found substandard. Let us note that she asked Baligh to compose for her, and that it was not imposed on her.

Take the song that has the most 6arab in it and present it to a mediocre singer, and you will not enjoy yourself much (at least, this is my opinion). 6arab, therefore, strongly comes from the singer and their ability to give their input in a given song.

Each composer has his own beauty to his compositions. Musical tastes change over time, as well. It's up to the composer to see if he can fit into this time, or otherwise be considered "obsolete" in some sense. To create beauty in a musical environment that was quickly changing was a difficult task, and they all brought their own imaginations to them, leaving us with what we have today on this forum. Was a certain composer too Western? Well... just as the composer has quite the effect on us, I'm sure we have an effect on the composer as well. If this was what was sought out and encouraged, then great for them to be able to incorporate that kind of style into their own and still maintain the arabic-music style in it all. Listen to the songs these days... with an attempt to incorporate American pop-music into their songs, are they successful? Do we hear any 6arab-related songs today that allow for the singer to dialogue with the composer on stage, or are we left with only the composer's idea of how it should be performed with the singer having little input, repeating refrains identically instead of having a twist to each one as the Great Lady would.

In summation, I don't think it's fair to discount a composer completely because we don't like their styles. I didn't listen to Om Kolthoum until I head Enta Omri when I was younger. And that opened a whole door to me of the beauties that I could find later on in her various songs (e.g. Hallit Layali el Amar). Let us admire what we have as musical feats.

Feel free to disagree, as I feel it brings such great debates.

I would also like to thank each and every one of you for providing the world with the rarities that are in this forum. You have brought a new world to many of us.

TP21

P.S. Is there only one recording of Hallit Layali el Amar? I know we have various versions of the same concert, but are there different concert recordings?

أبو علاء
08-02-2007, 12:57
TruePharaoh, you're not offending anybody. As you can see, our respective points of view are far from being identical and nobody feels offended by the others opposing his Otherwise, there's no debate at all.
This forum is definitely not a democracy when it comes to defining the object, the scope and the main policies thereof in the sense that none of that is debatable or subject to the rule of majority. But, freedom of thought and opinion is fully guaranteed here.

theoudman
08-02-2007, 13:43
Did anyone comment how Oum Kalthoum totally loses the rhythm a couple of times in this recording? Check out 39:57 and 48:20 for example -

أبو علاء
08-02-2007, 19:01
Did anyone comment how Oum Kalthoum totally loses the rhythm a couple of times in this recording? Check out 39:57 and 48:20 for example -


Sorry, but I wouldn't listen to 'inta 'umri however exceptional may the performance be.:) Nevertheless, had on another occasion stated my feeling about 'um kalthum's behaviour with rythm (with some disagreemnt on the part of Luay, if I remember well). So, I wouldn't be surprised by any such "failures".

luay
08-02-2007, 21:19
It wasn't really a disagreement Abu A'laa. My point was that probably a few examples don't make the rule, but rather the exception ;)

Luay

tecladista
08-02-2007, 23:38
What a nice discussion!!!! Beyond all your points of view, it is very interesting to read all of you!!!!!!!!!! Shukran yazilan!!!!:D

Palmca
10-02-2007, 10:55
To Fred I was redundant in uploading the song because the quality is not that good. I recorded it from the TV and the sound is not good at some points in the song. But over all it's complete and until we have a better quality I hope you enjoy it. Fred's tape is short by 8 minutes.

fredlag@noos.fr
10-02-2007, 11:00
@ Palmca : thank you !
@ Theoudman : I suspect 39:57 is not a rythmic fault but a short cut in the recording itself ; 48:20 is indeed a mistake, a text mistake that provokes rythmic mistake.

faridf
14-02-2007, 22:43
First of all, excuse my language, I am French and Algerian but I suitably speak neither Arabic (very difficult to type for me) nor English. That made a long time that I read you attentively, I learned much among you and especially I discovered many marvellous musics, I thank you. That known , I would like to approach a subject on which I do not believe to be in agreement with the majority here. Indeed, it seems obvious for everyone in zaman Al wasl that the usual thesis according to which the Arab music would have moved positively during the XXe century is completely false. I adhere to this obvious report. But, by opposition, one goes sometimes until thinking the reverse: while admitting nevertheless to appreciate “certain very confidential works” of Abd Al Wahab or Sumbati, overall, it seems obvious, that Manyalawi or Hilmi are higher and because they have in an undeniable way moved in a very different register, one concludes from it (by calling upon a specific vocabulary relating to the Western music), that such is “classical” or “erudite” and the other not. Which interest with all that? Why the musicologists like classify by treating on a hierarchical basis the tastes?
I would like to say that I adore Manyalawi and Hilmi, which of course, are very great artists. I do not say either that Wahab is higher, it would be ridiculous. It is simply different. Aren't « Al Gondol” or “Cléopatra” works belonging to a register equivalent to works of Manyalawi? From which point of view? Social? Esthetics? One defines usually an artistic kind in two manners: functional (for what that is used in the society?) and structural .
Wahab, Frederic Lagrange, show it in a masterly way, do not make a music comparable with that of Nahada. That is shown with objectivity. What can we conclude from it? Does Wahab make variety (while referring to the Western categories)? I do not believe. I already presented my ideas to him but I didn't convinced him at all. I expose you nevertheless my arguments:
1)It is not because a music is simpler or more popular than another, than it does not belong any more to one same unit which one could distinguish from the commercial kind, lower, “not-erudite” etc: Sometimes Schubert, Liszt or Brahms adapted in a very simple way (with elementary harmonies in the trios for example) of the European popular airs. The results is more accessible than an opera baroque of XVIth century, and yet, one considers that for classical music. The Italian opera of the XIXth century is simpler than the French opera of the XVIIIth century, the comic opera, more popular: one can, to take again the example of Fred, to sing Carmen in his shower (at least as well as one will sing Al Gondol) whereas one only can it very with difficulty for Rameau. And yet all that is known as “classical”. Of course, at the beginning these works made scandal: people said that it was not music: as soon as esthetics moves a little, one regards that as unacceptable. But the word “classical” indicates in Europe several things: a « kind » of music but also a particular esthetics: in the classical music, there is classical esthetics, but as the baroque, the romantic etc, and with each great change, scandal, of people affirm as it is not any more of the classical etc
2) I am at home a large intellectual when I say that I listen to musics that nobody knows. That gets an image positive, higher to me, even if I do not lie. Can't one forget the Western words to try to describe the Arab music? Can't one consider that there are different kinds, and that in their very many differences, Wahab, Sumbati and al Altrache (to give pleasure with Luay) belong nevertheless to the same category of Manyalawi? That what filled sociologicly the function of erudite music at the beginning of the XXe century is different aesthetically that what fulfills this same function in the Seventies, it is completely normal. Can one conclude from it that it is not any more the same register. Not same esthetics, yes, but why not the same register? That periods are less rich than others, it is also normal because related to the general history of the cultures. Can one conclude from it that the registers are like human beings, that they are born, live and die? Take the contemporary Western classical music: I like it less than the classical one or the romantic one, it does not fulfill the same social function, it is aesthetically very different, but can I conclude from it that it is not any more classical music?

ovide
15-02-2007, 00:51
I agree and disagree at the same time

yes, there is no "classical" western music that can be composed today, (unless if it is in a silly kitchy way);
it goes the same for baroque or romantic musisc.. etc.

yes registers can die, and however they must die as a register in some moment
and than they become a part of the history of a specific art,
and we should dialogue with it
Stravinsky didn't do, in his late period, other than dialoguing with older registers,

yes i can not write like moutanabbi today, and it will be silly to write like this in our days
(it was even silly with shawki but our egyptiens firned will be upset, so hush..)
but each time i write i am dialoguing with his langage, but not with his "register".

the problem in the arab music, in my sense, is that we have lost the arabic langage
of course wahab of the 40-70 is not in the same register than manyalawi or even salamah higazi
cleopatra of gondol have other "models" with whom they dialogue,
it is not a problem in it self, that is fine,
but what is a problem that we don't know any more how to do what manyalawi or sayed safti or asma el komsareyya (to please to fred) knew

in some thread (about el komsareyya) Fred noticed that oum koulthoum got something new in here vocal technics,
and that is why for us, the people of the after UK era, dislike sometimes the old female voices,
but still UK Knew how to do, and made a choice of those technics

the fact that we lost some of our langage is a sad thing and a problem in it self, especially when we aren't yet able to produce an other langage,
the arabic langage is suffering from that
as for the music, it may be subject for discussion
did wahab sunbati, sehrif, sedki, mougy tawil.etc. built a new musical register with a full langage structure??
maybe,
i may self like it very much, but i think that the position of Fred and Abou Ala and other firends is that this new register, not only made us loose a lot, but it haven't been able to give us new horizons and capacities to innovate after those composers
a hidden argumentation says that because of the wahab sunbati..etc. bagage and formation they could maintain some "level", performing and composing, but they wasn't able to give there successors such a formation.

now, that makes me go back to a point that i mentioned before,
we are lacking for concepts here,
(i am adresing this especially for frederic and others that have the musicology as a field of study)
because if we can describe the lost technics, we are not able yet to define criteria for comparaison between old and new ones,
and not even between old ones
should we preferate what abou alla called "eshbaa' al makam" on the surpise of rich makamic variations?

by wich rules ont can say that the melody of el fouad habbak, as a melody not the performing of the singer, is more beautiful than ya khaley el alb?

now one can say that is isn't a must to say which melody or technic is better,
the best is what we find beautiful,
but that means deniyng the utility of studying and organizing,
because each effort of studying is also a matter of organisation, hierchisation, and
détermination of what worth and what doesn't

so we need to go further in the elaboration of our "outils" (tools) of judgment (and not taste)

fredlag@noos.fr
15-02-2007, 10:13
@ Fadi / Ovide and @ faridf (did we meet ? what is your complete name ?)

elements of answer in French, from my dissertation, as a .pdf file, including better specified criteria, not only based on impressions and tastes.

The status of the post-WWII répertoire is indeed a problem, but I suspect traces of answer can be found in the composers' and interprets' stance that their production is "popular", i.e. their absolute refusal of any sort of elitism. The "under the shower" argument is not my invention as much as it is a declaration by Abd al-Wahhab himself, proud of having put art music at the disposal of all classes of the population.
I would also suggest that popular music vs. art music is a music that does not demand formation for the consumer, whereas appreciation of art music not only demands long training for the performers, but a (shorter, obviously) training for the auditor as well.
But Faridf's use of Bizet's Carmen, or I guess Verdi in 19th century Italy, could be convincing examples of non-elitist "popular" art music.
Third trail : I suggest one of the most bothersome elements of post 1930's music is not the basic melodic line or the vocal performance, but the orchestra, the "misuse" of the orchestra.
Monodic music is art music when there is an emulation between all performers so as to reproduce the melodic line in their own way (heterophony). When they all play the same melodic line the same way, the discourse appears as quite poor. We are completely used to kalsoumian songs lawazem the way they are, so we don't have an exterior perspective anymore, but they actually appear as quite poor. Abd al-Wahhab or Sunbati or others are no "composers" in the western sense of the term.
But here, I immediately hear and precede the three counter-arguments :
1/ one has to take emic [culturally internal] criteria into account, and the status of the production in a given society
2/ judging the modern Egyptian orchestra's instrumental discourse as "poor" implicitely supposes that the "rich" discourse is the polyphonic discourse, it is a refusal to acknowledge the possibility of orchestral art music in a monodic musical culture
3/ and what about moments of extemporization and variation in Umm Kulthum's concerts ? Can't we consider those as "orchestral heterophony" ? Then, since this criterium is fulfilled, would the variation moments be the only "art music" moments in those late songs ? Paradoxically, art music would re-appear when the composer is absent. Quite unacceptable.
This is why I tend to speak of a hybrid répertoire.

أبو علاء
15-02-2007, 13:03
I will not offer detailed responses to each of the points raised in faridf and ovide's interventions for several reasons, the least of which is that we're all here using a language we don't totally master (English), which makes it sometimes difficult to expose our own ideas or grasp the ideas of the others.
I will just dwell on one point that is the issue of evolution of styles and the comparison from this point of view with Western music. But let me first warn you of my total ignorance as far as the substance of the other element in such comparison is concerned (I don't have any knowledge whatsoever of classical European music, its trends, its history and the various stages of its evolution). Thus, I will limit myself to what's obvious for everybody. Nevertheless, however superficial my comparison might be, it serves eloquently my purpose.
Classical music is indeed no longer the dominant kind of music (or "register" to use faridf and ovide's terminology) in Western Europe. I guess the shift occured roughly sometime in the early 20th or the late 19th. I also suppose that, if there is still some productive work (in the sense of making new compositions) going on, it's most probably a marginal one restricted to the academic and specialised circles with no real cultural impact.
Yet, and here's the main difference, the past production of the glorious centuries is still alive and prosperous at the level of performance, training and "consumption". In other words, whatever the status of such musical styles as rock, rap, hip hop and so on, including the "imported" ones such as the jazz, symphonic music is still taught and studied in the conservatoirs, young musicians are trained therein, orchestras as well as the pool of performers are maintained and constantly renewed, concerts are regularly given, competitions are organised, prizes awarded, disks are printed, sold out and reprinted, critics are published....etc whereas we have nothing of this with Arab art (classical, nahda or whatever name you give it) music.
Even though, both from an aesthetic and a subjective point of view (maybe because of our age, but are we all that old?), we clearly prefer this particular style to any other style of music, we're not as naive as to claim that everybody on earth should be put to listen to Manyalawi and Hilmi in all circumstances for all catergories of people nor would we expect Arab music and musicians to remain standstill at the level of structure, logics, vision and easthetic concepts as those prevailing in the late 19th century. We simply feel outraged at such discourse and practices that have Arab music starts from Nancy Ajram, Muhammad 'abdi-l-wahab or even Sayyid Darwish (preferably in his lyrical works!) and finish there.
The problem for us is not whether we should write/speak as Mutanabbi used to write and speak. But, rather, that Mutanabbi (and all the others) has been forcefully excluded from our present experience and from our memory and it is all the more the case with music. I'm not aware of any comaparable example in any other cultural/societal setting than that of the Arab world.
It is to try and remedy such a monstruous ecological catastrophe that this forum was created and this is why we're so rigid if not dogmatic on so many points relating to its object, scope, policy...etc

Najib
15-02-2007, 13:34
My two cents,

Just a quick not to Ovide. Classical western music is still composed and new classical compositions are still appreciated noadays.

I give you a quick example. Olivier Messiaen is a very famous classical music composer who died in 1992. His successor on his Organ is a Lebanese musician Naji Hakim who succeded him at the Oragan of the Eglise de Trinite in Paris. So you could see even that continuity is still there.

Alas we could have the same in the Arab world, but we don't. We could have for example a successor of Qasabgi playing on his Oud for example. (He did have a student with many concerts, but the student was never famous).

I am at the moment struggling to grasp the principle of the Qasida based on the 3awazel Lazmeh. I don't see why picking up this style, and applying it to some beautiful Arabic poetry is impossible. It might not sell as many records as Haifa but so what? Let the people who enjoy Haifa enjoy her, and let the classical music taste emerge even if it was commercially inferior.

Also the popular "Sha3by" art is still there and practiced. I saw the Simsimiyyah group in London last year and they were fantastic. They sang a fantastic song about "Ta'mim el Qanal". It was so enjoyable and yet within a "classical" sha3by frame.

ovide
15-02-2007, 14:05
i haven't had the time to read frederic's french file yet, so just quick notes:

I fully agree with Abou Alaa,
i may just add that what i hope is not only to get this "register" back to some memories and to avoid an "ecological" desaster but i would like also that young musicians dialogue with it, and try to reappropriate some of it's logics and technics that we lost,

i certainly can't disagree with what Frederic mentionned,
i may just say that i am just admiring his capacity to clear academic definitions from the judment's trace,
but i may repeat my question, (and i believe i have the answer):
does he consider that the post WWII "efforts" leed us to the actuel impass?
and another question: how can we compare two melodies to decide wich is rich or poor? and by melody i think to their nude notes, not to the interpretation, or orchestraliation etc.
just notes in the space (of a musical sheet?!) without even a specific instrument voice!

as for Najib, since he is "baladiyyati" i may disagree with him more easly
but i think the problem is in a definition
for me "classic" is a period between after baroque and before romantic style, governed by specific rooles
so messian or Levinas or others is not, for me, classic
neither was the neo-classique of the XX century
it just as simple as that,
i don't think that every orchestral occidental work belong to the classical style
but i think Najib, and abou all, were using the term of classical as "savant" in french, or as a cultural heritage
the problem is that in using the term this way we can not see the evolution of "registers" and no differences will be clear between renaissance, baroque, roccoco, romantic, "new-classical", dodécaphonic, etc.

maybe that discussion should be done in arabic!!

finaly, i maybe be repeating my self, but what i feel is that we, as arab musicians and amateurs, have lost a lot when we completly forgot the bases and logic and technics of our 1870 -1930 music,
i feel for sure sorry that sunbati, who liked to sing sultan gamalak or some adwar in his own jalsat, and who forget a lot the words of his UK's work, didn't offer for the futur generations the same opporunity to appreciate this "old" school,
and of course one may say that wahhab's responsability is bigger,
but my point is that it is a huge effort,and i am very thankful to all those wonderful friends that gave us this, to try to collect and discuss this heritage,
but i feel it have,in some way, to be a source to dialogue with, and not only a museum,
but of course that means we should begin to compose in this NEW dialoging way

and i am inviting Najib to be the pioneer :D

faridf
16-02-2007, 23:53
It is true Abu ala, much of our misunderstandings are certainly explained by the problem of the language. Moreover, it's often even the case when we speak the same language: the words which we employ largely determine our visions… When you speak about academies, discs, concerts, statutes of this music, it seems to me that your arguments are sociological. It's very interesting and it's this cultural "report of force" ("rapport de force" en français) which makes you say what you say. And I agree. You justify yourself then by psychology:
« It is to try and remedy such a monstruous ecological catastrophe that this forum was created and this is why we're so rigid if not dogmatic on so many points relating to its object, scope, policy...etc » It is thus a psychological reaction.

Dear Ovide, I am also very happy to be able to listen to all these musics . I am aware of what that represents and of the value of this site. But if I understand certain reactions, I cannot fell all of them: I don't see why I should seek “persons in charge”, guiltys of an aesthetic evolution. Abdelwahab is for me guilty of anything else only to have been the artist of its time. If that had not been him, that would have been someone else. And even if one can regret certain things in Arab music or in other (policy, economy, literature) in connection with this time of identity crisis, it should nevertheless be admitted that Abdelwahab is a great musician.
And like you often say it, if good Arab music (perhaps can we simply call it thus?), I want to say the classical one, that of the beginning of the XXth century, is ignored today, it is I think especially a problem social, cultural, therefore political. I do not think that the aesthetic choices were really determining in this history .
Cher Frédéric, je me suis d'abord inscrit avec mon vrai nom (Faysal) mais pour une raison que j'ignore, ça ne marchait pas, j'essayais semble-t-il d'accéder à un truc auquel je n'avais pas droit etc (la même tournure que je lis encore avec le site « zeryab » dont j'ai entendu parler ici et auquel je ne peux accéder. Visiblement, je ne perds rien, n'est-ce pas ?) Alors j'ai réessayé avec un autre prénom, le premier commençant par la même lettre « f » qui me vint à l'esprit.
J'ai lu le texte, il est vraiment remarquable, on voit bien les enjeux sociologiques des différentes terminologies mais je ne comprends pas ce qui sous-tend cette affirmation dans ton post : « art music would re-appear when the composer is absent ». Tu utilises en outre un terme, qui, si je le comprends bien "misuse" dénote déjà un jugement, une appréciation, cela suppose que l'esthétique dépouillée, sobre est supérieure, de meilleur goût etc (je suis d'ailleurs assez d'accord) mais l'analyse objective qui permet d'établir cette typologie, n'est-elle pas orientée par ce jugement esthétique aux forts déterminants sociaux ? Le baroque a longtemps été tu le sais en Europe déprécié : là où on dirait aujourd'hui « complexe », « riche », « varié » on disait assez facilement autrefois « ampoulé », « pompeux », « prétentieux » etc. Même si je préfère maintenant moi aussi l'esthétique classique du takht khédivien, je me demande si mes jugements de l'autre esthétique plus tardive, ne sont pas aussi déterminés par mon époque, ma culture etc

أبو علاء
17-02-2007, 00:49
It is true Abu ala, much of our misunderstandings are certainly explained by the problem of the language. Moreover, it's often even the case when we speak the same language: the words which we employ largely determine our visions… When you speak about academies, discs, concerts, statutes of this music, it seems to me that your arguments are sociological. It's very interesting and it's this cultural "report of force" ("rapport de force" en français) which makes you say what you say. And I agree. You justify yourself then by psychology:
« It is to try and remedy such a monstruous ecological catastrophe that this forum was created and this is why we're so rigid if not dogmatic on so many points relating to its object, scope, policy...etc » It is thus a psychological reaction.


أراني عند هذا الحدّ مضطرّا للانتقال إلى العربيّة بما أنّ الفرنسيّة ليست لغة في متناول أغلبيّة روّاد هذا المنتدى، ولو أنّ استخدام أيّ لغة من اللّغات الثّلاث (ولن أجرأ على استخدام غيرها) يؤدّي حتما إلى حرمان عدد ولو يسير من الأعضاء من المتابعة ؛ ولن أطيل هذه المرّة ؛ كلّ ما في الأمر أنّي لا أفهم ما دخل السّيكولوجيا هنا.
لقد تحدّث الأخ فيصل في قسم لاحق من تعليقه عند مخاطبة فريد عن المنظور الاجتماعيّ أيضا وعن الموضوعيّة أو غيابها من الخطاب الجماليّ لفريديريك باعتبار انطلاقه من أحكام ومن ثمّ عدم حياده...
لا أريد الخوض في قضايا الذّات والموضوع عامّة، وحسبي القول أوّلا إنّ مقولة "الموضوعيّة" ليست سوى وهم (عند الأبرياء من ذوي النّوايا الحسنة) أو خدعة عند غيرهم أيّا كان المجال المعرفيّ الّذي يتناوله الفكر والخطاب إذ لا سبيل لوجود الموضوع، أيّ موضوع، خارج الذّات وبمعزل عنها، ولن أستشهد هنا ببعض تحاليل لوكاتش المبكّرة بل إنّي سأحيل فيصل على هذه المقالة البديعة والبليغة في آن، وقد نقلها أبو حيّان التّوحيدي عن أبي سليمان المنطقيّ منذ أكثر من ألف عام : "العلم صورة المعلوم في ذات العالم".... وذاك على أيّ حال مذهبي في أشدّ المجالات المعرفيّة انطباعا بمقولة "الموضوعيّة" مثل ما يسمّى العلوم الصّحيحة والتّجريبيّة، فما بالك بالإستطيقا، وهي مجال الذّات بالحتم لا ينازعها في ذلك أيّ مجال معرفيّ آخر.
ما ذكرته أعلاه وكرّره عنّي فيصل ليس ردّ فعل انفعاليّ (إن كان هذا ما قصده بالنّفسانيّ) وإن كنت لا أنكر النّفس ولا الانفعال في كلّ ما آتيه من مواقف وأقوال وأفعال ولست أدّعي البتّة أنّي آلة هامدة لا حياة فيها، بل هو موقف سياسيّ بالمعنى الواسع للسّياسة راسخ في سياق تاريخيّ وثقافيّ محدّد وقراءة معيّنة لذلك السّياق، وهو بالتّالي لا ينفكّ عن المنظور الاجتماعيّ ولا يستنكف منه، وهو إلى ذلك، لا جَرَمَ، مقترن بمسلك ذوقيّ أو تذوّقيّ دونما حرج من التقاء أحدهما بالآخر أو التباسه به، ولو أنّ فيصل قرأ جيّدا ما كتب في هذا المنتدى بدءا بنصوصه التّأسيسيّة لما وجد عناء في إدراك ذلك.

faridf
17-02-2007, 02:47
Too difficult level for me, sorry. I didn't understand all that you wrote. Can you try in English the part about Abu Hyan, objectivity and emotion, I think I did not understand that.

أبو علاء
17-02-2007, 11:14
Too difficult level for me, sorry. I didn't understand all that you wrote. Can you try in English the part about Abu Hyan, objectivity and emotion, I think I did not understand that.


Je vais vous le donner en français, du moins, je vais essayer car ce n'est pas évident. La science [le savoir], c'est la représentation de l'objet su[de ce savoir] dans l'esprit du sujet scient [savant].
C'est la fameuse identité du sujet et de l'objet, pour certain n'opérant que partiellement ou dans un champs restreint (notamment, celui des "sciences humaines") et donc contournable ou surmontable. Or, pour d'autres, et j'en fais modestement partie, cette identité est incontournable dans la mesure où elle fonde tout acte de connaissance.

faridf
24-02-2007, 02:51
Je vais vous le donner en français, du moins, je vais essayer car ce n'est pas évident. La science [le savoir], c'est la représentation de l'objet su[de ce savoir] dans l'esprit du sujet scient [savant].
C'est la fameuse identité du sujet et de l'objet, pour certain n'opérant que partiellement ou dans un champs restreint (notamment, celui des "sciences humaines") et donc contournable ou surmontable. Or, pour d'autres, et j'en fais modestement partie, cette identité est incontournable dans la mesure où elle fonde tout acte de connaissance.
Je n'ai pas tout compris (même si je l'écris mal je comprends bien mieux l'anglais que l'arabe, à tel point que je n'ai presque rien saisi de votre avant dernier message ! ): vous parlez d'une "fameuse identité" (excusez mon ignorance) du sujet et de l'objet, n'est-ce pas ? Voulez-vous dire que pour vous, on ne peut être objectif dans les sciences humaines ? Ce que je cherche à savoir est la "représentation de l'objet su" dans un esprit ? Je ne crois pas que cela puisse signifier dans la phrase que vous citez, mais peut-être suis-je dans l'erreur (je suis en effet bien loin de maîtriser comme vous la langue arabe), que "l'objet su" est l'équivalent du sujet scient. Le mot "repésentation" que vous utilisez dans votre traduction semble exprimer justement le contraire : la représentation d'une chose n'est pas la chose elle-même, elle en est le reflet, l'image, peut-être trompeuse, déformée. Le mot représentation semble aussi impliquer qu'il y a des bonnes et des mauvaises représentations, c'est-à-dire, des sciences plus ou moins efficaces pour rendre compte de leur objet. Des sciences, donc peut-être aussi des méthodes, pourquoi pas plus ou moins "objectives"... C'est ce que je crois comprendre de ce que vous citez d'Abu Hayyan, qui si j'en juge d'après le peu que j'ai pu lire de lui, semble bien, à sa manière, être aussi une sorte de rationaliste :
"Certains sages, parmi les Anciens, ont estimé que la passion demeurait dans le domaine du particulier, tandis que la réflexion s'élevait à la généralité..."

alshame
24-02-2007, 03:41
أعود بكم إلى لغتنا الجميلة والمعلومات التي طلبها فريد بيك عن حفلة الست في تونس الخضراء على صالة قصر الرياضة بالمنزة وتفاصيلها بالتمام هي
الحفلة الأولى مساء يوم الخميس 9 مايو 1968 وغنت فيها
1=فكروني --في 87د
2= الأطلال --في 62 د
والليلة الثانية مساء الإثنين 12 مايو 1968
1=إنت عمري --في 73 د
2= بعيد عنك ---في 90 د
وهذه الأخيرة أجمل الوصلات
والتسجيلات متوفرة جميعها صوت وصورة
وصوت بحالة فوق الممتازة

أبو علاء
24-02-2007, 11:34
محمود : للمنتدى لغتان رسميّتان رسميّتان لا لغة واحدة هما العربيّة والإنجليزيّة، وهو اختيار واع له مبرّراته العديدة وليس مطروحا للنّقاش أو عرضة للحكم ها هنا، ومنّا من "يحذق" إحدى اللّغتين فقط، سواء علينا أيّهما كانت، وله أن يكتب بها ويقرأ ما تيسّر له قراءته، ومنّا من أوتي بعض العلم بكلتيهما، وله أن يكتب بأيّتهما كانت أيسر له أو أقرب إليه أو حسب ما يقتضيه المقام وآداب الحوار، ولا فضل لأحد على أحد في كلّ ذلك ولا تثريب على أحد ؛ أمّا ما عدا ذلك من اللّغات فإنّنا لا نلجأ إليه إلاّ عرضا واستثناء لإيصال فكرة ضمن الحوار المذكور الّّذي لا يمكن أن يقتصر على البحث في تواريخ "أيّام" أمّ كلثوم أو بالأحرى لياليها مع تقديرنا لما لذلك من أهمّيّة.


Faidf: unfortunately, there are several impediments to the continuation of this interesting discussion. First, French is not a working language in this forum, although it might be the language some of us master best (actually, I have myself a far better command of French than English and would have preferred to express myself in the former when not in Arabic), but a forum is a place for communication and you can't communicate with other people without a more or less common language and French is the least common language here. Second, the issue of objectivity in science is totally outside the scope of this forum and obviously has little to do with 'inta 'umry! My comment was, in fact, a reaction to your mentioning such terms as psychological, objective/subjective, sociological....etc
Just a word of clarification to close these parentheses: identity in this context is not to be understood as equivalence as you put it or that the subject is the same as the object, but just that the subject is part of the object of knowledge, that such subject doesn't exist outside the object of study as well as the object doesn't exist outside our perception thereof or, at least, such existence per se is not in our reach to grasp. Any credible claim about objectivity, not only in so-called human sciences but in Science as a whole, precisely would require such seperate existence of the subject without any kind of collusion with the object as well as an existence per se of that object and the possibility for the subject to perceive it

oulidha
24-02-2007, 12:00
عفوا أخي محمود وجب تصحيح تواريخ حفلتي تونس
الحفلة الأولى الجمعة 31 مايو 1968 شدت بفكروني و الأطلال
الحفلة الثانية الأثنين 3 يونيو 1968 أطربت بأنت عمري و بعيد عنك
المصدر : شريط وثائقي عن زيارتها لتونس إنتاج التلفزيون التونسي بث منذ سنتين بمناسبة الذكرى 30 لرحيلها رحمه الله
أرجو أن تكون حصلت الأفادة و الشكر لـالجميع على المجهودات

hana
10-03-2007, 14:52
ميرسى اشكرك جدا على هذه التحفة واظنها كانت بداية تحول فى حياة السيدة ام كلثوم

لك تحياتى

أبو علاء
10-03-2007, 15:17
ميرسى اشكرك جدا على هذه التحفة واظنها كانت بداية تحول فى حياة السيدة ام كلثوم
لك تحياتى

عن أيّ تحوّل تتحدّثين ؟ حياة أمّ كلثوم بعد هذه الحفلة أم بعد هذا اللّحن ؟ أيّا كان جوابك فإنّ أهمّ ما يذكر في سيرته الفنّيّة كان قد غدا وراءها حينما غنّت إنت عمري وكانت "أيّامها" قد راحت حقّا.

fynyx
11-03-2007, 09:45
عن أيّ تحوّل تتحدّثين ؟ حياة أمّ كلثوم بعد هذه الحفلة أم بعد هذا اللّحن ؟ أيّا كان جوابك فإنّ أهمّ ما يذكر في سيرته الفنّيّة كان قد غدا وراءها حينما غنّت إنت عمري وكانت "أيّامها" قد راحت حقّا.

هو تحول على كل حال
:)

omkolthom
11-03-2007, 16:19
ليس لهذه الدرجة فأم كلثوم ظلت أم كلثوم حتى رحيلها

أبو علاء
11-03-2007, 17:14
ليس لهذه الدرجة فأم كلثوم ظلت أم كلثوم حتى رحيلها

ما أمّ كلثوم إلاّ بشر، ولا نعرف بشرا تظلّ صفاته ثابتة لا ينالها شيء ممّا يطرأ من تغيّرات على الذّات البشريّة نفسها وعلى بيئتها الّتي تعيش وتنتج فنّها فيها.

luay
11-03-2007, 19:49
I want to add my personal opinion on this issue for whatever it's worth.
In the 60's, Om Kulthoum gave great performances and showed sparks of her greatness (my examples would include the 1968 Morocco performance of Howwa Sahih), but this only when compared to other singers of the time. However, by her own super high standards, which she set in the 50's and before, the Om Kulthoum of the 60's is not equal to the one we heard in
El Awwela Fel-gharam for example. So, changes definitely occurred: her voice became much weaker (compare her Salou Qalbi in 1968 and that from the 40's!) Also, towards the end, she became really tired (her performances in Aghadan Alqak, El Hobbe Kolloh, etc., were very poor --- let alone the low quality of these compositions, which added to the problem).

Luay

kabh01
11-03-2007, 20:02
I have the complete digital video of Aghadan Alquak. I am uploading it in a few, shall I? :D :D :D

luay
11-03-2007, 20:25
I leave it to Abu A'laa to give you a "very diplomatic answer" to this "indecent proposal" :D

Luay


I have the complete digital video of Aghadan Alquak. I am uploading it in a few, shall I? :D :D :D

kabh01
11-03-2007, 20:34
I will answer it myself: NOWAY!!

الله يطرحلك البركه بالفيديو يا أبو كرم
:D

BEN ARFA TAHAR
31-03-2007, 23:44
السلام عليكم
هدية مني الى فريديريك لا غرانج باشا و أعضاء منتدى زمان الوصل
حفلة أم كلثوم بقصر الرياضة بالمنزة في تونس انت عمري كاملة
لاحظو خاصة كيف نست بقية كلمات الأغنية و ذلك في الدقيقة 33 و 30 ثانية من الجزء الثاني و استمعوا الى عازف الناي كيف لقنها بقية الكلمات.

كانت هذه الأغتية غير مبرمجة في السهرة الثانية و لكن بعد اصرار والحاح الجمهور قامت أم كلثوم بأدائها.

BEN ARFA TAHAR
01-04-2007, 00:12
الجزء الثاني .حفلة أم كلثوم بقصر الرياضة بالمنزة في تونس انت عمري كاملة

omkolthom
01-04-2007, 00:17
السلام عليكم
شكرا عزيزى على المجهود وقد قمت بالتحميل ولكن الملف مدته31دقيقةو16ثانيه لاأعرف اين الخطأ لذا ارجو ان تتأكد من الملف وفى انتظار اراء الاخوة الأعضاء

zbader
01-04-2007, 03:03
اسم الملف يذكر أنه الجزء الأول بانتظار أن يرفع الجزء الثاني

fredlag@noos.fr
02-04-2007, 10:46
بارك الله فيك يا سي الطاهر على هذه الصيغة الكاملة لحفلة إنت عمري في تونس
التاريخ في علمي ليس 13 يونيو بل 03 يونيو
الكمال لله : الصيغة الناقصة التي رفعتها أجود صوتا، والصيغة التي تفضلت بها مشكورا كاملة ولكن أقل جودة، ولكنها تبقى مسموعة.
ما زلنا في انتظار من يأتي بصيغة تكون في آن واحد كاملة وأجود من السابقتين على الصعيد التقني، فالقاسم المشترك بين كل ما رُفع على المنتدى من الحفلات التونسية والمغربية هو المستوى المتدني للتسجيل، فلا شك أن تتوفر، في مكانٍ ما، في خزائن هاوٍ ما، تسجيلات نظيفة لهذه الحفلات.

وانتهز الفرصة لتكرار السؤال : ماذا غنت أم كلثوم في المغرب وأين ؟ في مسرح محمد الخامس بالرباط أم في مدن أخرى ؟

أبو علاء
02-04-2007, 11:07
مع تذكير سي الطّاهر وبقيّة الأعضاء أنّه يجب كتابة أسماء الملفّات بالأحرف اللاّتينيّة وأنّنا قرّرنا حذف أيّة ملفّات تخالف تلك القاعدة بعد أن تكرّرت نداءاتنا دون طائل.

alshame
04-04-2007, 02:02
بارك الله فيك يا سي الطاهر على هذه الصيغة الكاملة لحفلة إنت عمري في تونس
التاريخ في علمي ليس 13 يونيو بل 03 يونيو
الكمال لله : الصيغة الناقصة التي رفعتها أجود صوتا، والصيغة التي تفضلت بها مشكورا كاملة ولكن أقل جودة، ولكنها تبقى مسموعة.
ما زلنا في انتظار من يأتي بصيغة تكون في آن واحد كاملة وأجود من السابقتين على الصعيد التقني، فالقاسم المشترك بين كل ما رُفع على المنتدى من الحفلات التونسية والمغربية هو المستوى المتدني للتسجيل، فلا شك أن تتوفر، في مكانٍ ما، في خزائن هاوٍ ما، تسجيلات نظيفة لهذه الحفلات.

وانتهز الفرصة لتكرار السؤال : ماذا غنت أم كلثوم في المغرب وأين ؟ في مسرح محمد الخامس بالرباط أم في مدن أخرى ؟

شكرا لكم جميعا
فريد بيك غنت ام كلثوم في رحلتها للمغرب العربي الوصلات التالية
29مارس 1968مسرح الملك محمد الخامس
أمل حياتي
الأطلال
31 مارس 1968 مسرح الملك محمد الخامس
فات المعاد
الأطلال =مرة أخرى
2 أبريل 1968 مسرح قصر الملك الحسن الثاني =حفلة خاصة
إنت عمري
فكروني
4 أبريل 1968 مسرح الملك محمد الخامس
رباعيات الخيام
هو صحيح الهوى غلاب
وهاتين الوصلتين تعتبران أجمل ماغنت في هذه الفترة والجمهور ألح على أن تغني أم كلثوم الرباعيات بعد أن كانت قد رفعت على الرف وآخر مرة غنتها كانت في 2 مارس 1961 في مسرح الأزبكية حتى أن بعض الناس خلعوا ملابسهم (النصف العلوي ) واخذوا يلوحون بها وكانوا رح يكسروا المسرح فاستاذنت أم كلثوم الناس نصف ساعة حتى تراجع اللحن مع اعضاء الفرقة الذين عاصروه ثم غنتها وعندما وصلت إلى شطرة (أطفىء لظى القلب )قالتها (أشعل هوى القلب ) وجن جنون الناس وبعد أن لاقت نجاحا خياليا جلست أم كلثوم ومحمد عبده الصالح يبكيان من شدة التأثر

fredlag@noos.fr
04-04-2007, 10:30
شكرا يا محمود على هذه المعلومات الدقيقة. أتراني سبق أن سمعت حفلة لرباعيات الخيام تغير فيها أم كلثوم الكلمات على النحو الذي ذكرت، ولكن لم أكن فطنتُ إلى أنها حفلة المغرب.

بحثتُ قليلا على الانترنت عن حفلة الست في السودان، فأصبح من المؤكد أنها غنت هذه ليلتي وإنت عمري في الخرطوم

Najib
04-04-2007, 13:53
إذا انجدونا بحفلة رباعيات المغرب الله يرحم اجدادكم

omkolthom
04-04-2007, 21:48
شكرا على هذه المعلومات القيمة وانا مع الاخ نجيب ونتمنى ان نسمع رباعيات الخيام بالمغرب

أما بخصوص حفل السودان فقد شاهدت اكثر من مرة تسجيل مصور لاغنية هذه ليلتى يذاع على روتانا طرب ولكن عند نصف الحفل تظهر أم كلثوم برداء مختلف فى نفس المسرح مما يدل على انها غنتها فى الحفلتين التى اقامتهماهناك وقامت القناة بجمع كل نصف من حفلة واذاعتها معا