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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : الأولة في الغرام



أبو الغيث
08-02-2007, 16:55
بعد الاستماع الى الحفلة التي رفعها أخونا أبو علاء (من أرشيف الأخ محمود الشامي)
http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1139#post1139 (http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1139#post1139)
ومقارنتها ببكرة الجد رحمه الله وجدت اختلافا في المقدمة فمقدمة العود في نسخة الجد غير مقطوعة من البداية وهنا يوجد اختلاف عن نسخة الاخ محمود ونرى ايضا اختلاف في تقسيمات العود بين النسختين لذا لم أستطع الحكم على اختلاف او تشابه النسختين لقلة خبرتي في ذلك.
سأترك الأمر للمختصين لاعطاء الحكم النهائي بالموضوع.
مع العلم اني وجدت اغنية عيني يا عيني في نفس البكرة وتحتوي على تقاسيم كمان وعود وقانون في المقدمة فرفعتها ايضا منتظرا حكم المختصين.
لم يكتب على البكرة سوى اسم الاغنية وملاحظة بوجود مقدمة عود للقصبجي واسم الملحن الشيخ زكريا احمد .
كنت أريد أن ارسل النسخة لأبي علاء قبل رفعها لأريحه من عناء مسح التسجيل اذا كان غير متوافق مع المقاييس الموضوعة للمنتدى , ولكن للاسف الكل يعرف مشاكل النت في سوريا فعذرا سلفا.

luay
08-02-2007, 17:18
Thanks Abu-l-Ghayth.
As for El Awwela Fel-Gharam, yes, it's different from the one Abu A'laa had uploaded, and many thanks for this new version of a song that, to me, is one of jewels of Arabic music of
all times. But I noticed it's just 30 minutes; so I wonder if it has cuts in places.

As for Ya E'in Ya E'iny, my feeling is that some people don't have it, but for me, this is a commercial recording (it's available on one CD with the live performance of Dhalamouni-Nnas; actually I was listening to both of them yesterday!).

Thanks again.
Luay

أبو علاء
08-02-2007, 18:08
الآن آمنت أنّه ليس من المستحيل أن نظفر يوما يتسجيل لحلم غير التّسجيل التّجاريّ.
دعكم من التّقسيم، وهو مختلف تماما (ومع ذلك فهو ليس مبدوءا من أوّله خلافا لما ظنّ أبو الغيث)، واستمعوا إلى التّصرّفات في القسم الافتتاحي المرسل، ففيها من "الخانات" الّتي لا تخطؤها الأذن لتعرف ما إذا كانت أوّل مرّة تسمعها أم لا.
أمّا عن بقيّة التّسجيل وما عسى أن ينقصه فإنّي لم أجاوز الدّقيقة التّاسعة في الاستماع.

أبو الغيث
08-02-2007, 18:14
الآن آمنت أنّه ليس من المستحيل أن نظفر يوما يتسجيل لحلم غير التّسجيل التّجاريّ.
دعكم من التّقسيم، وهو مختلف تماما (ومع ذلك فهو ليس مبدوءا من أوّله خلافا لما ظنّ أبو الغيث)، واستمعوا إلى التّصرّفات في القسم الافتتاحي المرسل، ففيها من "الخانات" الّتي لا تخطؤها الأذن لتعرف ما إذا كانت أوّل مرّة تسمعها أم لا.
أمّا عن بقيّة التّسجيل وما عسى أن ينقصه فإنّي لم أجاوز الدّقيقة التّاسعة في الاستماع.

الحمد لله انو عجبتك البكرة يا أبو علاء :D
واعذرني ان لم استطيع التمييز بين النسختين مباشرة وذلك لخوفي من أن أكون مخطئا كعادتي في رفع الملفات المتشابهة او التجارية فا‘ثرت أن أظهر بمظهر الجاهل على أن أظهر بمظهر المخطئ مرة ثانية ;)
اعدت الاستماع مرة أخرى للتقسيم وبدا لي وكأنه غير منقوص وخصوصا عندما يقول أحد المستمعين ( سمع) وهذا وكانه دليل على ان القصبجي قد كان يهم ببدأ التقسيم .
والرأي الاول والاخير لكم :D

fredlag@noos.fr
08-02-2007, 19:09
بارك الله في الجد يا أبا الغيث وبارك في حفيده
إن هذا لحدَثٌ جللٌ، صيغة ثالثة لأجود أغاني أم كلثوم قاطبة، الأولة في الغرام.
وهذا التسجيل الثالث يمكّننا الآن من تقييم ما هو من شأن زكريا وما هو من خيال الست.
من الواضح أن القسم الأول ملحن تماما، وأن الارتجال فيه زخرفي فقط، أما قسم حطيت على القلب إيدي السيكاه سيكاه، ، فزكريا اكتفى بفكرة عامة وبنية تدريجية، والباقي من صنع أم كلثوم، وما أروع خيالها. كذلك الانتقال إلى البياتي درجتين فوق ركوز السيكاه من وضع زكريا، ولكن هذا مجرد نقطة انتقال مقامي وعلى المؤدي الأداء. ما أقرب هذه البنية من مفهوم الدور ومن مفهوم شبه التلحين في المرحلة السابقة النهضوية
أما القسم الثالث، فأيضا مجرد فكرة عامة تتصرف فيها أم كلثوم على هواها، مخترِعةً مبدِعةً جملا تُقارب جنسَ الجهاركاه دون أن تعتنقه، وهي أفكار لحنية فظيعة.
ثم العودة إلى اللحن الموضوع في الخانة الأخيرة، وكأن زكريا أطّر مونولوجه بقسمين ملحنين وترك ما بين القطبين مجرد أفكار تقع مهمة تطويرها على عاتق المؤدي المبتكر.
لسنا بعيدا عن جماليةج الدور، مع أن هذه القطعة طبعا لا تندرج في هذا القالب.
أما عن طول التسجيل، فكونه 30 دقيقة لا يعني بالضرورة أنه غير كامل، فإني أرى هذه الحفلة متماسكة في اقتصادها، في نيّريتها الفائقة.

أبو علاء
08-02-2007, 19:44
وهذا التسجيل الثالث يمكّننا الآن من تقييم ما هو من شأن زكريا وما هو من خيال الست.
من الواضح أن القسم الأول ملحن تماما، وأن الارتجال فيه زخرفي فقط، أما قسم حطيت على القلب إيدي السيكاه سيكاه، ، فزكريا اكتفى بفكرة عامة وبنية تدريجية، والباقي من صنع أم كلثوم، وما أروع خيالها. كذلك الانتقال إلى البياتي درجتين فوق ركوز السيكاه من وضع زكريا، ولكن هذا مجرد نقطة انتقال مقامي وعلى المؤدي الأداء. ما أقرب هذه البنية من مفهوم الدور ومن مفهوم شبه التلحين في المرحلة السابقة النهضوية
أما القسم الثالث، فأيضا مجرد فكرة عامة تتصرف فيها أم كلثوم على هواها، مخترِعةً مبدِعةً جملا تُقارب جنسَ الجهاركاه دون أن تعتنقه، وهي أفكار لحنية فظيعة.
ثم العودة إلى اللحن الموضوع في الخانة الأخيرة، وكأن زكريا أطّر مونولوجه بقسمين ملحنين وترك ما بين القطبين مجرد أفكار تقع مهمة تطويرها على عاتق المؤدي المبتكر.
لسنا بعيدا عن جماليةج الدور، مع أن هذه القطعة طبعا لا تندرج في هذا القالب.
أما عن طول التسجيل، فكونه 30 دقيقة لا يعني بالضرورة أنه غير كامل، فإني أرى هذه الحفلة متماسكة في اقتصادها، في نيّريتها الفائقة.


قتلتني يا رجل إذ سبقتني إليها.
هذا ما كنت أنوي كتابته بالضّبط، والنّجيب يشهد أنّي لم "أسرق" هذه الفكرة منك، فقد ذكرتها له في مكالمة هاتفيّة حين أردت تنبيهه إلى هذا التّسجيل ودعوته إلى الاستماع إليه، وهنا يحضرني قول مأثور من أقوال مواطنيك يا فريد...
لم يبق لي بعد هذا ما أضيف سوى أنّ عظمة هذه المطربة جعلتها تقدّم لنا من خلال هذا "الدّور الحديث غير المتوقّع" بمفردها ما كان يحتاج إلى عدّة من جهابذة الغناء، فكم مرّة استمعنا إلى أدوار مختلفة (البلبل جاني، سلّمت روحك، كلّ من يعشق جميل... أسعفوني باسم دور السّوزناك الّذي غنّاه علي الحارث فقد ضاع منّي اللّحظة...فضلا عن لسان الدّمع والفؤاد حبّك اللّذذين ما زالا في قائمة الانتظار بالنّسبة إليّ) وكنّا نرى الدّور يتجدّد لحنه عدا المذهب والإطار العامّ بين مطرب وآخر مع تفاوت مقدار الجدّة والإبداع بحسب تفاوت أقدارهم الفنّيّة ؛ وإنّ من يستمع إلى صيغ الأوّله الثّلاث من أمّ كلثوم لَيجد نفسه إزاء ثلاث حلل مختلفة كما لو أنّه سمعنا من المنيلاوي وحلمي وحجازي ؛ وحسبنا نظرة سريعة على التّسلسل المقاميّ (باعتبار ما يتيح الوقوف عليه سماع واحد) فإنّك لا تجد الصّبا ولا راست النّوا في هذا تسجيل أبي الغيث كما أنّك لا تجد النّهاوند في تسجيل محمود أو التّسجيل التّجاريّ، والبياتي هنا غير البياتي في التّسجيل التّجاريّ، وكذلك السّيكاه...

fredlag@noos.fr
08-02-2007, 20:05
@ Abu Ala'

أسعفوني باسم دور السّوزناك الّذي غنّاه علي الحارث

Maliki ana 3abdak.

et de quelle expression de mon qawm tu parles ??

أبو علاء
08-02-2007, 20:12
Tu as trouvé le lien entre el-'awwilah et le dawr et pas l'expression en question ! Les grands esprits se r encontrent. Voyons !:)

أبو الغيث
08-02-2007, 23:36
Tu as trouvé le lien entre el-'awwilah et le dawr et pas l'expression en question ! Les grands esprits se r encontrent. Voyons !:)


بالعربية ... بالعربية .... الله يخليكون خلونا نفهم .... بلاه الفرنساوي :D

أبو علاء
09-02-2007, 00:05
هذه مجرّد مداعبة بيني وبين الفريد يا أبا الغيث ؛ كلّ الكلام المفيد كتب بالعربيّة هذه المرّة وإن لم يكن فبالإنجليزيّة ؛ هذا دأبنا في هذا المنتدى رغم أنّنا لا نحذقها تمام الحذق (أقصد نفسي طبعا) لا لشيء إلاّ مراعاة للواقع اللّغويّ لأغلبيّة الأعضاء (في هذا الأمر لا بأس من مراعاة الأغلبيّة ولن نتمثّل بقول أبي تمام حين سئل : مالك تقول ما لا يُفهَم، أو لعلّها : مالك لا تقول ما يُفهَم، فردّ : مالك لا تَفهم ما يقال ؟).

Najib
09-02-2007, 14:25
Allah yerham jeddak, we Allah yedeemak.

Guys let's not forget 3eini Ya 3eina that is uploaded here.

The teksim of Qasabgi in the beginning is delicious.

Umm Kulthum is peak in her improvisations.

How did I not hear, and love el Awwilah before I really don't understand myself now.

3amr
09-02-2007, 16:54
How did I not hear, and love el Awwilah before I really don't understand myself now.

ehhm,
I have a sort of a confession to make: this is the first time I listen to el awwila fil gharam, even though I had downloaded the other version (and completely forgot to listen to it).

The reason I downloaded this version and heard it, was because Luay said in his post that this was the greatest song umm kulthum ever sang, and I decided, well, I'm obviously missing out on something here, and boy, was I missing out on something.

THIS IS THE GREATEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD FROM UMM KULTHUM.

There now, I confess.

By the way, the long bayati section with wa 2ul ya eini s3ifini, is more than "out of this world" to quote a favourite phrase from najib, it is enough to give anybody with a heart a figurative heart attack.

You know, I can't help hitting everything around me when I hear tarab, including stomping on the floor. All I can say is the. neighbours had a very good dose of stomping this morning (after another good dose with sheikh bakri yesterday night).

And then the nahawand bit..............

Najib
09-02-2007, 17:43
Welcome home! :)

fredlag@noos.fr
09-02-2007, 18:11
How strange... I can still see myself, 25 years ago, a French school student of 16 with long greasy hear, preparing the baccalauréat. I see my room, I see myself delicately taking between my hands the black covered LP of el-awwela fel-gharam, putting it on the record player, paying attention not to scratch it, and listening over and over to the voice break of Thouma at the end of side A, in the es3efini ya 3een saba section. I was trying desperatly to convert my father, allah yerhamo, to kalthoumism... It never worked, though.
The record had been brought to my attention by a Tunisian girl my age, two months before... I had introduced her to hanat al-aqdaar, and she had told me "yeaah, not bad, but this is nothing compared to el awwela, you have to buy it". It was pretty expensive, 60 francs at that time for a record. This is all that ever happened between us, I remember her name, Sarah. That and her teaching me the phrase "sodfa khayr min alf mi3ad".
It was at that time, before listening to everything UK had done, that I decided, almost as a cult, that el-awwela was the best she could do. Ever.
Other souvenirs are linked to this song, 20 years ago in Sidi Bu Said, singing it at 1 am for friends at the qahwa 3alya, a winter night when there were no tourists in town.
Oh yes, before that, in 1984, Maurice, the Tunisian Jewish owner of a cinema in Belleville just close to the synagogue, who collected UK songs and gave me as the ultimate present the alternative version of El awwela, the 1947 one, and made me swear never to give it to anyone. I wonder if he is still alive...
And that time I heard on the radio Sufiya Sadiq imitating UK's commercial version breath by breath in this song, to perfection, and me thinking I had never heard anything more useless, more absurd, more a testimony of people having lost the meaning of Arabic art music, how fidelity to the letter was the epitome of treason in the spirit.
I feel I've always lived with this song... 3agayeb...

luay
09-02-2007, 18:37
I'm glad, A'mr, that my comment caused you to listen to this jewel, but I must clarify, that the way you quoted me is not 100% accurate (though not far) ;)
To me, I can't ever say which song of OK's is the best ever. I can give a list of songs that are the best, and that list, without any hesitation, would include El Awwela. I know you, A'mr, love Zakariya (who wouldn't?!), but I urge you to listen to Ya Albi Bokra-Ssafar. To me, it has some elements similar to El Awwela, mainly in that it's all improvisations from the first to the last minute.
Now, if you ask me what the strangest (in a positive way) song of OK, I would say it's El Awwela. Before we heard the two versions on the forum, a question for many of us who love this song was: what parts did Zakariya really compose here, versus what was just improvisations from the lady. Now, we have the answer, and Fred eloquently and scientifically gave it above. And Abu A'laa had answered it before, when the first version was posted.
Further, I think this song is unique in that it showed Om Kulthoum's capabilities, particularly in terms of improvisations, like no other song did. Finally, this song shows us what an influence the singer would have on the composer. I doubt Zakariya would have thought about such a melody if Om Kulthoum wasn't there. Some might debate this point, and I have no way to prove it, but it's just my feeling.

A'mr: I would really encourage you to listen to the other version on the forum, as well as to the commercial one (the term "commercial" in this case might give a negative implication, because El Awwela is as far as one can get from "commercial" singing... but we are using the term "commercial" differently here, of course).

I'll be back when I actually have a chance to listen to this version.

Best regards to all the good listeners.
Luay

3amr
09-02-2007, 18:49
@ Fred,

Judging by the sampler above, I'd say your autobiography would be a very very interesting read, particularly as it shows how a "westerner" approached something as arabic as Umm kulthum, and arabic culture in general.

@ luay,

If I remember correctly, I quoted from something you wrote in arabic, which is not really an excuse for my less than perfect translation, but the point got there in any case.

I did listen to the other version, though not with as much concentration as this one, I particularly liked the saba part if I remember correctly, but I still like this version more.

I'm going to buy the "commercial" version as soon as possible, assuming I can find it.

As for ya albi bukral safar, last time I heard it, I didn't have a particularly good taste in arabic music, considering that to me, tarab back then was just an abstract concept that I had never quite felt. (my remark about the stomping indicates that that has changed since then). I'll try again.

By the way, I ADORE raqq il habib, so I don't really believe in "zakariyya w bass"

أبو علاء
09-02-2007, 21:36
A'mr: I would really encourage you to listen to the other version on the forum, as well as to the commercial one (the term "commercial" in this case might give a negative implication, because El Awwela is as far as one can get from "commercial" singing... but we are using the term "commercial" differently here, of course).
Luay


3amr, Luay anticipated what I was to tell you. I will just add you have a serious backlog there and you have to try and make for the lost time as a matter of urgency. Since Luay has already pointed out the two other versions, both so breathtaking, and ya qalbi bukra, I'll add up two more titles, maybe three, 'ahli-l-hawa ya lil 'azbakiyah 3 May 1956, habibi yis'id 'awqatu (there are a couple of recordings around including the "commercial" one; whatever one would do) and 'ana fi-ntidharak 'azbakiyah 3 March 1955 (if you don't find the "commercial" 'awwila, just let me know, I'll provide a copy). But, don't worry much! Najib has just written he discovered it last winter and you're still so young!
Fred, in my own case, listening to el-'awwila and discussing it evokes a different set of souvenirs. We're back in Sousse on the roof of a high building not far from the Corniche in a summer night in 1978 . It wasn't long after I got my baccalaureate (I was 20). There were three of us: Najib El Gharbi, Lazhar El Heni (a blind 'ud player who was fond of Farid - he passed away a couple of months later) and myself. I had already discovered el-'awwila a while ago, but what I clearly remember from that night is our simultaneous exclamation Najib and myself with a certain amount of excitement (of course, we had drunk some spirituous) on hearing Qasabgi going down to the nawa (yakah) higaz after safir fi yum ma wa'idni! (in the "commercial" version the whole pentachord or tetrachord or whatever is not so "visible" as in both other versions)...
Luay and everybody else, yesterday, when I was about to write my initial comment before I saw Fred had done it for me, I intended to start by a remark Fred had posted in the morning about salu ku'usa-t-tila concert (1937) that struck me and made me decide to listen again to that one. Fred wrote "salu ku'usa-t-tila [as rendered in that concert]is a qasida 'al-wahda". He then spoke of lively reminiscences of nadhdha art music. Then, we came both to the conclusion that el-'awwila was fundamentally (in the way it was structured as well as in the "division of labour" between the composer and the performer) a sort of actualised form of dawr. There are also, though at a different scale, the cases of ya qalbi bukra-s-safar mentioned by Luay, raqqi-l-habib (1952? Is that really the right date?) and 'ahli-l-hawa (1956). All these instances, in my view, are to be placed on the same line and seen from the same perspective (with el-'awwila still occupying a prominent central position), that of a lady who both by her artistic bringing up as well as her vocal capabilities was the last representative of that art of "another age". Of course, she had to adapt herself to the new artistic setting and values while managing to keep her own cachet and a firm grip over her carriage in the descent to the hell of modern entertainment music. In the meantime, partly out of nostalgia for the good old times, but probably also as part of that strategy consisting in mainaining control over the trip down everybody's road to the dark night of and the letha fate of lilit hubb/hakam 'alina-l-hawa and keeping her specific cachet all the way through, the nahdha genius revived in her from time to time, according to the mood of the moment, the audience response/composition, her own inspiration... she unleashed the domesticated animal who, then forgot about everything present for a while and enjoyed herself. Somebody reported she on exclaimed on hearing her own recoding of 'ahli-l-hawa:
هو انا كنت باقول كده ؟
She simply couldn't figure she was herself singing in such a (marvellous) way!
I don't know hwo far what I've written makes sense. I would have liked to go through at least some of the vocal/melodic features of this performance. But, it's 30 minutes long: twice to three times the lenght of one of Fred's dawrs I haven't commented on yet! So, let me just quickly hint at a couple of things:
- 'amr mentioned saba in the other version (it's yet more beautiful in the commercial one) and I mentioned the absence thereof from this one. I wanted to ascertain it in my second listening and I was amazed at the number of times (not less than three) the takth tried to drag her into saba and she kept resisting sticking to bayati and then slipping into nahawand;
- that very nahawand I mentioned in my first comment is actually 'ushshaq masri if I'm not mistaken.
Oh, and one more thing. Apart from Zakariya (not necessarily him alone, although maybe with him more easily than with the others), what we described here as that nahdha-like spirit/perofrmance would simply have not been possible without 'abduh Salih and Muhammad Al-qasabgi and maybe, to a lesser extent, 'ahmad E-hifnawy around.
One of the favourite sasys of a dearest friend of mine is: It takes two to tango. I would say, it takes four or five plus a few hundreds of good tarab listeners in front of them to produce a manyalawi-like dawr in the late fourties-early fifties.

oulidha
09-02-2007, 22:28
متى تاريخ تسجيل عين يا عين ؟
أول مقدمة تجمع عود القصبجي بقانون عبده ؟
أغرقتمونا بحسناتكم

luay
09-02-2007, 23:30
I completely agree with everything everyone wrote :-) Not surprising, when we're talking about such a song (we'll leave disagreements to some other songs, and we've seen almost bloody ones there :D )
Abu A'laa: I don't know how Om Kulthoum would have sung such a song, and gave such a performance, without these tarab listeners that you mentioned. I really don't mean to go to our discussion about Enta Omri in Tunis, but listen to the audience reaction to every single line
here, and to the audience reaction in 1968! The audience of El Awwela were an invaluable part of this magnificent performance we're listening to now.

By the way, I'm very interested in knowing where, chronologically, El Awwela falls among Zakariya's "long" songs for Om Kulthoum. Was it the first, and they decided to abandon such a style? Was it the last, and hence abandoned out of no volition of their own, due to their fight? Or
was it neither first nor last, and it's really one of Zakariya's multi-faceted style? Is there any other composition of Zakariya that's close to this one in style? I can't find any such ones among his compositions for Om Kulthoum. [I'm leaving Howwa Sahih out; I know it's the very last one, but my question is about his compositions before the 50's]

And, once again, a million thanks Abu-l-Ghayth.

Luay

أبو علاء
09-02-2007, 23:41
By the way, I'm very interested in knowing where, chronologically, El Awwela falls among Zakariya's "long" songs for Om Kulthoum. Was it the first, and they decided to abandon such a style? Was it the last, and hence abandoned out of no volition of their own, due to their fight? Or
was it neither first nor last, and it's really one of Zakariya's multi-faceted style? Luay


Good question indeed, but I wonder whether somebody really knowlegeable and reliable can answer it for us. Of less importance is the one put by Oulidha. I would suggest it was not far away from the date of the othe non-commercial version whatever the right date of that one is (1947 or some other date in the mid-fourties).

fredlag@noos.fr
10-02-2007, 00:20
By the way, this is my copy of the (alledgedly) 1947 recording, which we could agree to call "concert2", the standard Sono Cairo being "concert1". It is slightly longer than Mahmud's simply because the speed is very slightly lower, and maybe a slight tampering around minute 31. No big difference in overall quality, but a different sound texture.
And yes, of course, the standard version is by no means inferior to concert 2 and 3, it is a wonderful wonderful performance. It is one of the very few cases in which Sono Cairo actually released a good rendition of a song. Probably because there are no bad ones around :-)
I lived 28 years cursing this company for providing us systematically with the less interesting concerts of a given song. Or was it out of propedeutic concern on their behalf ?
I really wonder what it means to discover, as Amr is, ana fe entezarak and ahl el hawa through those highly melismatic versions. Will he feel he is blessed with a miracle, like I imagine most of us felt , after listening to the standard sono cairo versions for years, learned them by heart, listened to them over and over, dozens of time, then one day were lucky enough to be offered another version and lived a epiphany ?
Understand me, this is not at all a "oh those young guys get it all too easy, we had to suffer to get this" kind of remark, what I mean is more like an epistemological concern: can one appreciate variation without having integrated and digested the basic canvas ?
But then, obviously, sometimes the standard canvas is flavorless and might simply divert attention (not the case in Zakariyya's tunes, but for instance listening to the studio version of ya tul 3adhabi would probably deter anyone from liking the song)
And then again, this is the way listeners of the 40s lived it: a first "trial" concert with few variations, and probably ever since the second rendition a miracle. And in the case of el-awwela, a structure based on variation from the very beginning.

Amr, I am not really convinced I'm a good example of western listener of Umm Kulthum, I started kalthumism at age 14, which is basically the age an Arab listener might encounter her as well, or at least start paying attention to her. So my personal history is hardly different than any one of yours, and the formation of my taste must have been quite similar.

ما أرفعه هنا هو نفس الحفلة التي رفعها أبو علاء
http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1139&postcount=1
وكان مصدره صديقنا محمود. مصدري مختلف فإن خامة الصوت مختلفة قليلا، وإن لم تكن أجود بكثير من الملف المرفوع سابقا
إنها الصيغة الثانية، والمفروض أنها حفلة حديقة الازبكية سنة 1947

kabh01
10-02-2007, 01:14
تحفه فنيه كهذه يجب أن تتدرس في معاهد الموسيقى لقيمتها الفنيه العاليه جدا ليس فقط من الناحيه اللحنيه "الزكريه الأحمديه" بل ايضا من الناحيه الأدائيه و التصرفات "الكلثوميه" الغير متوقعه و التي تمت عن خيال موسيقي واسع و مخ نظيف و غير مضطرب و خال من أي شوائب الا من قمة النغم و الموسيقى والفن الراقي

الوحيد الشيخ زكريا الذي كانت ألحانه من النوع "السهل الممتنع". و الوحيد الذي كان يعطي للست مساحات كبيره للتفريد و التصرف و هذه المرونه لم تكن موجوده لا عند عبد الوهاب و لا بليغ. ربما كانت تتصرف بعض الشيء في أغاني السنباطي و لكن ضمن حدود معينه مقارنة بما كانت تفعله في مثلا "هو صحيح" و "أنا في انتظارك" و "حلم" الخ الخ.

رحم الله الشيخ زكريا و ست الستات رحمه واسعه

Burhan
10-02-2007, 11:09
[QUOTE=3amr]@ Fred,

Judging by the sampler above, I'd say your autobiography would be a very very interesting read, particularly as it shows how a "westerner" approached something as arabic as Umm kulthum, and arabic culture in general.

[QUOTE]


Amr, I dont agree w your point about 'a westerner' ( and I am not sure if u r refering to orientalism)....which I dont think they typically represent Fred's frame of mind and works...


As for الاوله , this version raises our anticipation of other live recordings of UK performing Zakkaria. This makes me wonder why she didnot choose to perform the songs of Dauod Hosni or even those she learnt from Sheikh Abul-3ila live in the second half of the thirties and the fourties too.

3amr
10-02-2007, 13:14
I put "westerner" between quotations not because I meant the typical westerner, but because I was aware that fred is by far not much of a westerner. (I don't know why, Fred is to me as much an arab as 3amr ubnu kulthum, maybe because he has a better command of arabic than the arabs themselves...).

In any cases, the first version of ana fintizarak I heard was, get ready now: 3awad al dukhi :D. The second one was sheikh zakariyya, and after that I was hooked. Then came the excellent (though very short) recording somewhere on the internet (the site fynyx used to record from), then I heard the abu ali version which was then provided in better sound by fred. And well, it's enough to say that ana fintizarak is the only song by the lady that I can play on the oud (thanks to an arabic teacher at school who taught me the song note by note).

I still don't have the commercial version of either ana fintizarak or ahlel hawa.

Yes, so much catching up to do. (I was so busy collecting adwar, and iraqi maqams, didn't pay much attention to the lady, except when a new recording of raqq il habib came out on the forum).

@ fred:
how on earth did a 14 year old french adolescent convert to kulthumism?

luay
10-02-2007, 14:52
I still don't have the commercial version of either ana fintizarak or ahlel hawa.


3amr,
In my opinion, all the versions of Ahl-el-Hawa on the forum have more interesting
stuff than the commercial version of the song. Unless, you meant to say "El Awwela"
and not "Ahl-el-Hawa". In the case of El Awwela, the commercial version is a must.

As for Ana Fe-Ntidharak, and despite the outstanding quality of the improvisations in the
one on the forum, I still LOVE the commercial one. The commercial one has beautiful
stuff in the part of A'yza-A'raf La-Tkoon Ghadban, and even more beautiful stuff in
Tewa'edny.

Best,
Luay

3amr
10-02-2007, 15:39
I am sorry, I forgot to mention that I just bought el awwila this morning (my legs are still aching after walking about two kilometers around Hamra street before finding a place who sells it, I had to get a network card and a reesheh as well, so...)

I listened to the first side (before I had to take a shower), I'll be back once I give a thorough listening.

Ahlel Hawa is gowing to need a bit more time to digest.

luay
29-07-2007, 04:32
A question to those who can answer:
What's the maqam Om Kulthoum is using between minute 22 and 12 seconds and
minute 22 and 20 seconds? In particular, the words "alb" and "eedy"?

[I'm talking about El Awwela posted by Abu-l-Gayth here.]

Thanks.
Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
29-07-2007, 11:05
What I hear is simply that she is playing with 2 degrees *under* her bayyati phrases, she is toying with the inferior tetrachord. From what I hear in this sentence, the degrees would lead to a gins nahawand if 2 more degrees were hit.

Let's agree, for the sake of the demonstration that she is singing nahawand/rast + bayyati/nawa (of course, if the base of her nahawand is another degree, which only an instrumentist can tell, simply adapt)
That means she is stopping mid-way on degree kurdi, and that the feeling we have is that of 2 complete tones plus a 3/4 tone when she hits tik hisar, so it's a formula reminiscent of gaharkah.

The point is : she is playing during those 10 seconds with kurdi/gaharkah/nawa/tik hisar, so this is not a maqam nor a jins, it's just a play (quite common) with the degrees that are both in the inferior zone of the first gins or tetrachord and the upper part of the second gins/tetrachord.

KERDAN
1 tone
3AGAM
3/4 tone
TIK HISAR
3/4 tone
NAWA--------------------BASE OF GINS BAYYATI
1 tone
GAHARKAH--------------CEILING OF GINS NAHAWAND
1 tone
KURDI
1/2 tone
DUKAH
1 tone
RAST

3amr
29-07-2007, 11:29
Excellent explanation.
But do you agree that given the context, and the lack of further exploration by the sitt, the closest thing she gets to is the Ushak Masri that we've been discussing recently.

If we take ushak masri on dugah. I feel the real mark of ushak masri, in addition to the use of the rast degree (the leading tone is a whole tone), is the extreme focus ushak masri places on the Hussayni (the fifth), it's like ushak masri revolves around the hussayni degree, with frequent excursions, either up to explore the bayati, or down with a busalik qafla, but the fifth remains central.

There is only one problem I can think of with this theory, when she does this colouration later on, she insists on exploring kurd on hussayni, rather than the bayati one would expect, before going back to a full blown bayati and forgetting all about the busalik down under.

If you replace the bayati in usshak masri with kurdi, you get the turkish maqam busalik (as I judge from a busalik taksim placed on zeryab, which runs counter to what our friend bahri said about turkish busalik).

It could be that if umm kulthum considers that the bayati she was doing as coming from a siga background (full blown bayati, but with an iraq backdrop so to speak), she was trying to explore the bayati with a busalik background, instead of the siga background, a sort of change of maqamic background (and by background I mean the context and possibilties as well as mood). And thus, whatever the higher jins is (bayati or kurd), both instances of this talween would share a busalik "background" (for lack of a better word).

What do you think? (by the way, umm kulthum is one hell of a genius, but I can't seem to get over how much she is superior in performing sheikh zako's music than she is with all other composers, as a general trend).

luay
29-07-2007, 14:51
Dear Fred and Amr,
Thank you very much for this extensive and informative explanation. I hardly know anything about maqams, besides some of their names, but your explanation confirmed the point I had in mind when I posed the question: even though it's just 8 seconds, I thought to myself that what I was hearing couldn't be all on the same maqam, but wanted to hear opinions such as yours. But I must admit that I didn't think there would be so much in an 8-second-long sentence!


(by the way, umm kulthum is one hell of a genius, but I can't seem to get over how much she is superior in performing sheikh zako's music than she is with all other composers, as a general trend).

Amr, to me, of all genres of music, I feel that El Awwela is closest to a mawwal than to anything else. Zakariya, as Fred put it, just "drew" the general lines for Om Kulthoum, and left it exclusively to her imagination (the next closest example to this is in the part of "Nas Men Oloubha Taool Ya Leil" in Ahle-l-Hawa). But the lady did amazing things in songs of Qassabji (we know Ya Albi Bokra-Ssafar and the 1952 version of Raqqi-l-Habib) and Sunbati (lots of examples, most recently Shamsi-l-Asil, Ya Dhalimni, ...).
So, probably one can say that Zakariya's music ALWAYS put the lady in a tarab mood and extensive improvisations (with the exception of El Ahat, which I can't figure out, after listening to three different versions of the song, why we don't hear any improvisations), whereas with the other composers, it took some extra elements to get the tarab mood (I think Mahmoud once wrote that Qassabji even didn't want her to improvise in his songs, but I don't know how true that is, given how involved he was in many of these improvisations, such as the commercial Ana Fi-Ntidharak, El Awwela, Ya Dhalimni, and the list goes on and on).

Thanks again to both of you for the enlightening answers.

Luay

3amr
30-07-2007, 15:30
Well, no doubt the greatness of el awwela has it's roots firmly in umm kulthum's creative genius, and almost infallible tarabic judgement at this point in her career, but if you read what I wrote exactly, I said at the end, that it was a "general trend" for umm kulthum to let out the "beast" in her when she was singing sheikh zako.

I think Qasabji is a true genius, but we only got a couple of long songs by him where umm kulthum does some work, so, he's somewhat out of the comparison, the real comparison is between zako and sunbati, and to be honest, I have trouble appreciating sunbati stuff (they tend to be long, repetitive, and too "orchestrized" for me, I know it's a generalization).

As for the question at hand, would somebody (particularly those who know turkish music) help tackle this issue?

I have just taken a quick look at the buselik pesrev by nikolaki:

The rast degree is essential to busalik, but so is the zirgula, in as much as rast is used during the development of the melody, where as zirgula is reserved for two cases: development of hijaz under busalik, or the qafla of a musical sentence.

luay
30-07-2007, 18:57
Hi 3amr,
I apologize that I went through your message at the end quickly and missed the "general trend" qualification. What I wrote is exactly about this "general trend", so we're in agreement here.

What you wrote about Sunbati, is something I understand; it's a view shared by others on this forum, e.g., Fred and Najib (if I'm not mistaken). I'd disagree with the the view of
long and repetitive (the songs composed by Zakariya in general have much shorter lyrics as well, which necessarily reflects shorted songs, but I don't think that alone explains the length of Sunbati's compositions).

It's just one of those disagreements, that I think it has a lot to do with taste...

Thanks again 3amr,
Luay


Well, no doubt the greatness of el awwela has it's roots firmly in umm kulthum's creative genius, and almost infallible tarabic judgement at this point in her career, but if you read what I wrote exactly, I said at the end, that it was a "general trend" for umm kulthum to let out the "beast" in her when she was singing sheikh zako.

I think Qasabji is a true genius, but we only got a couple of long songs by him where umm kulthum does some work, so, he's somewhat out of the comparison, the real comparison is between zako and sunbati, and to be honest, I have trouble appreciating sunbati stuff (they tend to be long, repetitive, and too "orchestrized" for me, I know it's a generalization).

As for the question at hand, would somebody (particularly those who know turkish music) help tackle this issue?

I have just taken a quick look at the buselik pesrev by nikolaki:

The rast degree is essential to busalik, but so is the zirgula, is as much as rast is used during the development of the melody, where as zirgula is reserved for two cases: development of hijaz under busalik, or the qafla of a musical sentence.

Tarik Beshir
07-08-2007, 14:35
What i love about this song is the simplicity of the music and how sheihk Zakaria just paves the way with his simple but pure music for om Kolthoum to carry the whole song with her unrelenting voacal prowess....a masterpiece in my opinion that needs a singer at the top of his / her game in terms of vocal power, range and breath control to pull this off...and my god does she pull it off...Allah yir7amik ya soooma.

faykaon
10-12-2007, 19:59
لا يستطيع الكلام ان يعبر لكم عن مدى شكرى وتقديرى للاستاذ ابو الغيث...لما يقدمة لنا ولهذا المنتدى الرائع من تراث نادر الحصول علية...مع خالص شكرى للاستاذ ابو علاء....

luay
07-08-2008, 02:51
I was listening again to this jewel. The way Qassabji accompanies the lady in going down starting at minute 29 and 59 seconds is just too beautiful not to be commented on. May Qassabji's soul be resting in peace now.

Luay

sonbaty
09-04-2010, 23:32
هل يوجد تسجيل رابع لها؟ أذكر أني سمعت تسجيل مدته 50د فهل هو ممنتج؟