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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : الحبّ كده : سنما قصر النّيل 5 نوفمبر 1959



أبو علاء
03-03-2007, 00:31
هذا الّلحن من ألحان السّنباطي الّتي لا أستسيغها كثيرا، وهو من الألحان قليلة الرّواج نسبيّا بالقياس إلى العناوين "الكلاسيكيّة" المعروفة، وقد لاحظت أنّه لم يرفع له أيّ تسجيل بالمنتدى إلى الآن، وبثّت إذاعة الأغاني أمس أوّل حفلة غنّتها فيه أمّ كلثوم، فرأيت أن أقدّمها لكم.


As per the file name

luay
03-03-2007, 05:40
Thanks Abu A'laa.
Two quick comments, which are "non technical" (not that I can do any technical stuff, but still..), since I can't listen now:

1. the file name says 1958 and the thread title says 1959 (and the title inside the file
says 1959). So, I guess it's 1959.

2. this is a November concert and the announcer says it was the first concert of her "mawsem". But we have on the forum a recording of Awwedte E'iny from December (don't remember the year), and the announcer says it's the first concert of the mawsem. Did the
mawsem start in November or December (or some other month)? I think Fred raised this
question before, but now there are two contradictory statements from the announcers, unless
I'm not remembering the Awwedte E'iny one correctly.

I hope in a few days I'll be able to listen and make useful comments :-)

Luay

أبو علاء
03-03-2007, 09:41
1. the file name says 1958 and the thread title says 1959 (and the title inside the file
says 1959). So, I guess it's 1959.
Luay


Your comments are already useful, Luay. Sorry about this mess concerning the date. It is indeed 1959. I can't see any reasonable explanation for this 1958 thing about which I've go so far as to invent a stupid comment in informing Fred of this concert, than the unmistakable sign of early senility. By the way, this is similar to my remark on the november 1954 concert. Allah yustur as Najib used to say! As for the first concert issue, I sincerely can't help and don't care

fredlag@noos.fr
03-03-2007, 12:15
I can hardly believe Bayram al-Tunsi wrote this. If Egypt had a tax system comparable to the United States' or Western Europe's, I'd say he really had to pay his taxes... Go joking on Abd al-Wahhab Muhammad and Mursi Gamil Aziz after that... Although it had a slight Edith Piaf-esque ring to it...

luay
03-03-2007, 14:11
Both of you are too good for me when it comes to Arabic language, poetry, etc. (not to mention music,..), so I can't really comment too much on the lyrics, and Bayram vs. the others Fred mentioned. But, if I may give my personal opinion, I do find similarity in the
"quality" of a line like "Kolle Dah Kan Loh Taatheer" (Lessabr Hdoud) and "Wu Lamma Taba'oh Yetghayyar Wu Albi Yebaa Met-hayyar" (El Hobbe Kedah). So, probably both lyricists
had their "flaws".

As for Morsi Gamil Aziz, I do like his stuff (although I'm sure we can find many weak sentence). I like his "Ya Habaybi Men Yom Ma Ba'edna, Wala Sheia' Feddonya Byesa'edna,
Wala Warda Betzawwaa' Betna, Wala Shama'a Betnawwar E'idna", in Ya Habaybi Ya Ghaybin, which not-your-friend Farid sings :-)

Luay

luay
03-03-2007, 14:14
Fred,
Edith Piaf is mentioned many times in Om Kulthoum's books and documentaries, mainly in the context of "similarities" between the two. Pardon my ignorance, but I know nothing about
her other than the name, so could you please in a sentence or two tell us (me) about her and
her "status" as a singer?

thank you.
Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
03-03-2007, 14:40
Edith Piaf (died 1962) is both comparable and totally different from Umm Kulthum.

As far as music is concerned, there is no possible parallel: Piaf was formed to popular music, to "chanson française", a genre that is totally apart from western art music, i.e. the classical repertoire or the "modern learned music" repertoire. If a comparison had to be made, Piaf would be closer to Munira al-Mahdeyya, Na‘ima al-Masreyya, etc. although such parallels are always very artificial. She had an extremely powerful voice and beautiful timbre, with an impressive ability to convey a sense of tragic in her performances. She is also quite despised by French specialists of pre-WW2 popular songs, for they feel that she "khadet aktar men haqqaha".
UK, on the other hand, was formed to traditional Arabic art music, and followed its evolution towards commercial mainstream popular music. In a sense, UK started as La Callas and ended as Piaf, musically...

As far as social status and public importance are concerned, Piaf is much more comparable to UK, in the sense that they are both the "national artist", the lady in which a whole nation reveals and likes to see itself, a beloved icon, the death of whom is felt like a tragedy.
But whereas UK is the non-drinking, non-ungaged in sexual activities (at least officially in both fields), religious but modern, educated icon,
Piaf was uneducated, raised among prostitutes, was both a drunk and a drug addict, had many lovers including boxing champion Marcel Cerdan, all of which is also much more in accordance with what the French perceive as the romantic life of a great artist. There is, though, a resemblance in the self-made woman aspect of both singers. Piaf is in her personnage more in the like of what Billie Hollyday or Judy Garland represent for Americans, but as a national icon, closer to Umm Kulthum.

Last, they are both hard working performers, with an ability to convey instant emotion in their songs.

luay
03-03-2007, 16:45
Thank you very much, Fred.
Your point about the "official image" of the non-drinking Om Kulthoum, raises a point that I
struggle with a lot. I'd like to raise it, despite the sensitivity of the issue for some members:
is it really that Om Kulthoum never drank? Her performances tell something that's very close
to the effects of alcohol. In the same line, can it be that Zakariyya had no alcohol in his blood
when he composed El Awwela Fel Gharam? And, I'm VERY SERIOUSLY asking these questions.

Thanks again for the information about Edith Piaf.

Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
03-03-2007, 18:11
There are many parts in your question.

1/ As for UK being in a state close to drunkenness during concerts, I am *positive* that this is just an impression, UK is "high" on her own voice, on her own art, on music, on tarab.
2/ As for composers, their generation and background was certainly much more tolerant of alcohol and haschich than the present one. So I am pretty sure they did drink and smoke during evening parties, but I don't see any relation between alcohol/narcotics and their production. A drunken bad composer/singer remains bad, and a drunken genius is not as good as a sober one.
3/ Artist of the early 20th century had a heavy history of drinking *during* performance. Sayyid al-Safti, Amin Hasanayn, some of the main 3awalem, were described as heavy drinkers, and European sound engineers complained about Arab artists being often too drunk to perform correctly. There are obvious insances of Abd al-Hayy hilmi drunk in some recordings.
4/ UK in her young years had a reputation of a tee-too-taller, a non-drinker, and this is confirmed by European sound engineers, who stated she was different from the others. So I would tend to think she indeed neither drank nor smoked in her young years
5/ As for consummation of high quality "social" alcoholic drinks among chosen friends in the later times, an Egyptian friend of mine, since deceased, assured that UK sometimes had *one* whisky *after* concerts, which is consistent with Egyptian liberal habits of the 1920-1970 period, even for women, although this is of course long forgotten in bigot contemporary Egypt. This is an unconfirmed report and might be totally invented, though.

luay
03-03-2007, 19:12
Fred,
My point, or more accurately question, about the relation between alcohol/narcotics and the artist production can be explained by the following question:
can't it be that Zakariya was drinking/smoking, got high, and certain parts of El Awwela came to him? I'm not implying that alcohol would make a good composer from a bad one, but it may make a more imaginative composer out of a great one! But since I'm not a composer, I don't know :-)

Luay

omkolthom
03-03-2007, 21:53
السلام عليكم
تسجيل جميل وطبعا ملاحظ التغيير عن النسخة التجارية ومعظم الحفلات لهذه الاغنية فى المقدمة الموسيقية وفى نهاية كل مقطع والسؤال هو هل غنت أم كلثوم هذه الاغنيه قبل التغييرات مرة اخرى غير هذه المره ام هى المره الوحيدة

وبخصوص هذا الحفل غنت
هجرتك الوصلة الاولى
الحب كده الوصلة الثانية
أروح لمين الوصلة الثالثة

Najib
05-03-2007, 12:37
Hi,

I don't know if Fred wants to include it in the Shakla3ah category, but I love the sense of rhythm in this song. It is different from the monologuish lengthier style of most of Sunbati later songs.

Saying this, Shams el Aseel is one of my favourite rhythmic songs as well.