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: Hayri Tmer - Saba Taksim



dem
18-03-2007, 01:36
Saba Taksim - Hayri Tmer

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9753/neyzenhayritumeril3ko7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

3amr
18-03-2007, 06:10
thanks dem

I have this taksim under Dugah taksim,
so, is it dugah or saba?

dem
18-03-2007, 11:32
I think this is saba.
I also asked some friends. They all agree.

3amr
18-03-2007, 12:51
yes, but the presence of saba is very much consistent with makam dugah, since makam dugah is mainly a saba scale:

http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/dugah.html

adamgood
18-03-2007, 16:18
Ah interesting, I would say it sounds like saba mostly but i can see how there are very subtle elements of dgah, some but not all of his cadences are using more of the pitch krdi or dik krdi rather than an ussak type cadence which would use more of the pitch segah.

So i don't really know much about dgah, it's really elusive to me. but here are some of my observations for makam Dgah:

1. yes, it uses a lot of saba. but it also seems to pivot between hicaz and saba but i don't know in what order or if that really matters.

2. Dgah makam also seems to use the pitches zirgule (or dik zirgule? not sure) which is a close pitch below the pitch dgah and goes all the way down to what i think is the pitch Acem Asiran.

which saba would never do.

I've heard this in a couple places: Necati Çelik told me he thinks Dgah can be thought of as somewhat of a transposition of makam segah to the pitch Dugah. but with a large dose of saba.

there's a very well-known folk song or Trk but I'm so embarassed to not know the exact name or how to spell it but it's something like "Aksarai"...Dem or anyone else can you help me out there? This is a good simple example of makam Dgah.

regards,
Adam

3amr
18-03-2007, 17:10
very interesting discussion.

I believe the song is Aksaray'in Taslari? (did a google search just now, I haven't heard it).

By the way, there is another dugah taksim here on the forum by Aka Gndz which is a bit clearer I think (although significantly shorter).

Anton Efendi
18-03-2007, 21:44
There you go:

http://neyzen.com/images/notalar/dugah/aksaraydan.gif

Anton Efendi
18-03-2007, 21:47
here:

http://www.turkishmusic.org/cgi-bin/t1.pl?ra/vv/isturk13.ra

tecladista
18-03-2007, 23:30
an awesome taksim and an interesting discussion. It is interesting to know all the points of view, because we can learn a lot about the makams, I am agree with adamgood...but every point of view is interesting and helper to understand all the question of the makamat.

Anton Efendi
19-03-2007, 03:15
Two different explanations from two different perspectives. One from al-Shawwa, and the other from Kiltzanides's 1881 treatise.

Shawwa

The seyir, according to Shawwa: Begins from the Cargah to work Sabah on the Dugah then Hicaz on the Cargah. Then descending, it is sometimes Sabah on the Dugah, and other times Hicaz on the Dugah, and its karar is on the Dugah.

Shawwa's analysis: 'aqd Sabah on the Dugah, and 'aqd nagham Hicazkar [sic] (not sure how to translate 'aqd [tetrachord?] and nagham [melos?]) on the Cargah. Then descending, it uses makam Sabah on the Dugah followed by makam Hicaz on the Dugah, touching on Zirguleh instead of Rast.

Shawwa's scale: (Ascending) Dugah, Segah, Cargah, Sabah, Huseyni, Acem, Gerdaniye, Sehnaz, Nim Buselik, Mahuran.

(Descending) Mahuran, Bozorg, Muhayyer, Gerdaniye, Acem, Huseyni, Neva, Hicaz (or Cargah), Kurdi, Dugah.

Kiltzanides

Kiltzanides offers two different analyses for Dugah.

1st version.

Seyir: Unlike Shawwa, Kiltzanides starts this version of the makam on the Dugah. It works its way up to Cargah, on its way up to Huseyni. Descending to the Neva it hits Hicaz before stopping on the Neva, and working its way down to settle on the Dugah.

As you can see, there is no note of Sabah in this analysis. Only the Acem and Hicaz are noted.

The Mian Hane (usually the third hane in the scores (http://neyzen.com/images/notalar/dugah/dugah_ss_neyzen_yusuf_pasa2.gif)) starts from the Muhayyer and works on the high notes (as you can see from Shawwa's scale). As you can see in some of the scores, you can see Hicaz being played there.

2nd version.

Seyir: This version sounds more familiar. Again, starting from the Dugah, it goes up to the Cargah, and descending touches on the Nim Zirguleh [equivalent to Shawwah's descending analysis, Hicaz on the Dugah]. Then it again settles on the Dugah, working its way up to Cargah. Here it should be noted that in this version, and although he never says it explicitly, Kiltzanides's seyir hovers around the Cargah, where it would be natural gravity for the Sabah to play, and this is indeed what we see in the Ottoman scores (http://neyzen.com/images/notalar/dugah/dugah_ss_neyzen_yusuf_pasa1.gif). It then ascends to Gerdaniye, to descend and settle back on the Dugah.

---

So judging from the actual Ottoman scores, as well as part of Shawwa's analysis, Kiltzanides' second version is the common Dugah, which has Sabah and Hicaz, touching on the Zirguleh or Nim Zirguleh.

Najib
20-03-2007, 00:05
Lovely file, fantastic debate, and thanks Anton for the extensive explanation.

I really need to go away and digest what was uploaded here.

adamgood
20-03-2007, 13:04
The seyir, according to Shawwa: Begins from the Cargah to work Sabah on the Dugah then Hicaz on the Cargah. Then descending, it is sometimes Sabah on the Dugah, and other times Hicaz on the Dugah, and its karar is on the Dugah.

Shawwa's analysis: 'aqd Sabah on the Dugah, and 'aqd nagham Hicazkar [sic] (not sure how to translate 'aqd [tetrachord?] and nagham [melos?]) on the Cargah. Then descending, it uses makam Sabah on the Dugah followed by makam Hicaz on the Dugah, touching on Zirguleh instead of Rast.


Anton this sounds pretty good for a description where did you find that? I'm not familiar with the name of the guys you mention.

One thing though, the analysis makes it sound like, first you play makam Saba then Hicaz and listening to some pieces and taksims just now I feel it's much more open and in no particular order.

This could be one of those makams that you can start out in different ways:
Saba
Hicaz
Krdi? or something like it but using the dik Krdi pitch
Segah or something like it transposed to pitch Dgah

Really interesting that for a makam that I THINK is not considered a compound makam (or is it? I don't really think so) that it has many colors available to it in just the opening phrase.

I do believe that a VERY key element to the makam is the idea of feeling it like a transposed Segah makam. it would of course use very different intervals but the feeling is very much in there. sort of like makam Evcara can be looked at as a transposed Zirgule makam but in essence has very much a feel in common with makam Evi.

a lot of you probably have the Bekir Sidki Sezgin voumes, there at least 3 sarkilar and 1 kar that he does. notice how each one can sound like it begins in a different way.

Anton, thanks for the info you posted!

Adam

Anton Efendi
20-03-2007, 17:57
Thanks Adam, and Najib. I hope it helped.

Adam, from what I saw, I think Shawwa's "descending" analysis best describes the makam. Sabah on the pitch Dugah, then a transposed Hicaz on the Dugah descending, and touching on the Nim Zirguleh.

Shawwa is Sami al-Shawwa, the famous Aleppan violinist who was very influential in transmitting and interpreting the Ottoman heritage in the Levant. I have his book on music theory, where I got this information.

Panayotis Kiltzanidis is a 19th c. Byzantine music theorist who also wrote a treatise (based also on Marmarinos, I'll double check) on secular (ottoman music) comparing it to Byzantine music.

adamgood
21-03-2007, 00:38
Anton,

I'm really curious to see these books or whatever form it is in that you have them. are they in English?

I'll be in NYC around May, perhaps we can get together?

best,
Adam

Anton Efendi
21-03-2007, 00:53
Unfortunately, Adam, one is in Arabic the other in Greek! But I can show you and go through them with you.

Any Barbes gigs in May? Look forward to it, as always!

Drop me a private message with your email or any contact info and we'll set up something for May.