PDA

مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : Ibrahim Sahlun 4/4 : Bashraf Ishaqi Higaz (with Aqqad)



fredlag@noos.fr
11-05-2007, 11:52
أرجو مساعدة الإخوة في تحليل هذا البشرف الغريب، بحيث أنه يتحول بعد الخانة الثانية إلى نوع من التحميلة، حين يرتجل سهلون على الأوستيناتو الذي يلعبه محمد العقاد، وكذلك في الوجه الثاني بعد الخانة الثالثة يتولى الناياتي علي صالح مهمة التقسيم
ثم العقاد،
قبل العودة إلى مألوف البشرف، .
الاسطوانة طويلة جدا،
9:32mn
ولكن لا أظن السرعة بطيئة، بل بالعكس

بشرف إسحاقي حجاز
عقاد-سهلون-علي صالح
Gramophone 018000/01
circa 1908

Najib
11-05-2007, 12:36
I don't think this was meant to be one piece, it was probably "designed" by 'aqqad. The beginning is a bashraf or part of a bashraf, then he introduces teksim on bamb all over it. The closest I can think of the whole thing is something in Ottoman music called Zencir (i.e janzeer, chaine).

This was nice, and we badly need music from that era in this section.

Thanks.

أبو علاء
11-05-2007, 12:54
فريد، أوّلا أعتقد أنّك أخطأت في تسمية البشرف، لست أدري إن كان ما كتبته هنا هو ما كتب على الاسطوانة، ولكنّ ما يقوله المطبّباتي في بداية التّسجيل هو : "اللّه اللّه يا محمّد افندي يا عقّاد، من فضلك سمّعنا بشرف حقّي حجاز." وبالتّالي قد يكون هذا البشرف من نظم إسماعيل حقّي.
أمّا عن التّداخل بين قالبي البشرف والتّحميله فلدينا عنه مثال آخر شهير جدّا هو البشرف المعروف ببشرف قره بطاق، ولطالما حيّرني أمره ولم أدر لِمَ سمّي بشرفا، وإن لم يكن هناك خطأ ما، وها أنت تقدّم لنا بهذا البشرف الجديد الّّذي نعرف صاحبه (حقّي ؟) أنّه ليس في الأمر استثناء، ويبقى المطلوب الآن البحث عن صيغة عثمانيّة-تركيّة لبشرف حجاز حقّي كي نرى كيف عُزف عند أصحابه الأصليّين، أو لعلّ العثور على النّوتة وحده يكفي حتّى نتبيّن ما إذا كانت هذه الصّيغة تنويعة عربيّة على القالب الأصليّ أم أنّها في جوهر التّأليف، ومن المهمّ أيضا أن نعرف إن كانت هناك خانات أخرى حذفت لغرض هذه الصّيغة أم أنّ البشرف مبتسر أصلا، وهو ما يفسّّر ملء الفراغ الحاصل بهذه التّقاسيم المتخلّلة...

fredlag@noos.fr
11-05-2007, 13:15
@ Abu Ala' :
I don't think it is Haqqi. I do hear "Isha'i" in the speaker's address to Aqqad, and the name is clearly Ishaqi on the record's sticker, and in the August 1908 Gramophone catalogue it is also written both in Arabic and French

بشرف إسحاقي (حجاز)
Bachraf Ishaki (Higaz)

so I'm fairly sure this is the standard name of this piece, which has indeed a qarabatak ring to it in this bashraf/tahmila mix, but whether this is Aqqad's invention or the original form of the piece we have to see with our friends specialists of the Ottoman repertoire.

Najib
11-05-2007, 13:25
Also more to support Fred's info I did a search in few Turkish websites, there were many composition by Haqqi but none of them listed a Hicaz Pesrev as one of his compositions.

In fact it would have surprised me a lot if Haqqi has composed a Hicaz Pesrev because most of what he composed revolved around the Acem derivatives of maqams such as Acem Kurdi, and Ferahfeza. The latter being widely known to Arab instrumentalists.

Yes I can hear Ishaqi but who was the guy?

أبو علاء
11-05-2007, 13:31
In this case, you're right and what the mutayyibati says in the beginning is "... bashraf shaqi higaz", eliding the initial "i". Actually, to be honest, I didn't myself realise the name was "Is-haqi" and misread it in Ichaqi! Anyway, this doesn't change the nature of the fundamental question. This Ishaqi is probably known to Ottoman music specialists and maybe the original pesrev would not be difficult to find, which should help us in finding out whether this tahmilaesque structure is originally built in the composition or is rather a variation peculiar to the Egyptian school performances.

fredlag@noos.fr
11-05-2007, 13:52
I think I've identified the composer :
Tanburi Ishak (1745-1814)

see http://www.sarband.de/Programs/English/YehProgrE.html

he is credited of a gulizar (whatever gulizar is supposed to be...) pesrev and a Buselik one...

see http://www.neyzen.com/gulizar.htm and http://www.neyzen.com/buselik.htm

Najib
11-05-2007, 14:27
Yes I was mentioning him on the phone to Mohsen.

He was Sultan Selim III's teacher. Does he have a Hicaz Pesrev though?

By the way

Gulizar =

كالعذار

I saw that in the picture of an old manuscript on the En Chordais CD that was dedicated to Tanburi Ishaq and played by the Bismara group in Istanbul

It's a makam like Muhayyar, but apparently with two tonal centres one on Muhayyar and one on Kurdan.

3amr
11-05-2007, 14:41
About the composer, the turks often write his name "tanburi Isak", in case anybody is searching the web (I searched turkmusikisi, and found a gulizar semai, a gulizar peshrev, and two other semai's or peshrevs, one of them in saba-zemzeme, but nothing in hicaz).

About gulizar, there is an AMAZING taksim by Tanburi Cemil in maqam Gulizar, if anybody wants it, I'll upload it in the turkish section (it's from either zeryab or the turkish ministry website I think).

By the way, if you follow the line of Tanburi Isak's students, you will find names like (get this right): the sultan (as Najib mentioned), Tatyos Efendi, and Tanburi Cemil.

Oh, and a link I just found (this has pretty much all the tanburi isak you can find on the web).
http://www.adamgood.com/turkish_nota/rep.php?composer=104&sort=makam_name

أبو علاء
11-05-2007, 14:50
Isn't it possible that the "Is-haqi" is simply a contraction of Ismaïl Haqqi? Could you find out whether this guy has composed a hicaz pesrev?

3amr
11-05-2007, 15:11
I didn't search too much, but there doesn't appear to be a Hicaz peshrev by Ismail Hakki (there is definitely a Hicaz semai though).

As for this piece, I think I found it.

As far as I can tell, this is Hicaz Karabatak Pesrev by Kemani Hizir Aga.

I have the notes (though they're in .tif, which I can't upload), and I'm trying to compare, but it's so ornamented, I can't be too sure. It starts out the same, but then it starts getting a bit different from what I have, and the structure of a karabatak pesrev is too complicated for me to follow.

fredlag@noos.fr
11-05-2007, 16:22
@ Amr
Mahmud 'Ajjan, in Turathuna al-musiqi, Dar Talas, Damascus, 1990, p. 91
mentions indeed a bashraf qarabatak shahnaz by Hidr Agha (= turkish Hizir Aga),
but I'm not sure it is this one. Why would the Early century Egyptians get the composer wrong, considering this was a repertoire they had learned thru Ottoman musicians coming to the khedevial court or during their own stays in Istanbul ?

أبو علاء
11-05-2007, 18:17
As for this piece, I think I found it.

As far as I can tell, this is Hicaz Karabatak Pesrev by Kemani Hizir Aga.

I have the notes (though they're in .tif, which I can't upload)

Now you can upload the score.
But, wait a minute! You mean karabtak is a particular type of pesrev so that there is a huzam karabtak pesrev, a shehnaz karabtak pesrev and so on?
Well, this is new for me and this would mean a karabtak pesrev is precisely this kind of pesrev-tahmilah mix . But, is the tahmilah common in Ottoman music or is it the other way round i.e the Arab genre tahmilah precisely originated from karabtak pesrev pattern?

3amr
11-05-2007, 22:14
ok, there they are.

notice that the notes contain performance directions, such as "beraber" which I think means as a group or together.

fredlag@noos.fr
11-05-2007, 22:23
from my turkish-arabic sozlük :

beraber :
تعادل

beraberlik :
معية، تعادل

3amr
11-05-2007, 22:28
كما ترى في الإسم، هناك صفة المعية، و أنا لا أفقه كلمة واحدة من التركية، لكنني فهمت أن الـ"برابر تقسيم" هو التقسيم الذي يشترك في أدائه أكثر من عازف، فقلت ما قلت قياسا على تلك الحالة، و لعل أحد إخواننا الأتراك في المنتدى يؤكد.

Anton Efendi
12-05-2007, 16:55
Hizir Aga (died ca. 1760) has another Segah Karabatak Pesrev.

Here are two renditions of it. One by Cemil Bey (accompanied by Udi Nevres) in the Turkish tradition. The other by Nidaa Abu Mrad in the tradition of the Nahda.

Karabatak is a type of Pesrev. From what I understand Karabatak was a technique in Mehter music. And if I have correctly, "batak" itself means "solo." So for instance if you look at the second page (http://neyzen.com/images/notalar/hicaz/hicaz_p_karabatak_hizir_aga2.gif) of the Hicaz Karabatak Pesrev by Hizir Aga, you'll see written birinci batak, ikinci batak, i.e., first solo, second solo. Then you have beraber (together). From what I understand, in Mehter music, the Karabatak technique was to have both the soft and strong parts together but beginning with the wind instruments and then gradually involving the other instruments. The back and forth I think is referred to as Batak (solo) and Cumhur (ensemble). (So 3amr had it right on all counts!)

In his description of the Karabatak Pesrev, Abu Mrad says that this Pesrev is closer to the Tahmila.

وهو أقرب إلى التحميلة منه إلى البشرف التقليدي، ففي مطلعه مقدمة وتسليم، ثم تقاسيم موقعة لعازف منفرد، ترد عليها لوازم التخت، فالتسليم، فتبديل العازف المنفرد. وينتهي البشرف بمقطع لحني على ضرب السماعي الثقيل.

3amr
12-05-2007, 18:37
Tanburi Cemil is AMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZING.
And Nevres has the sweetest oud tone I have heard yet.

Thank you so much for this high quality file.

Just to be clear, the Aqqad-Sahloun file is indeed the hicaz karabatak pesrev? Because they start out the same and then I can't follow it at all.

أبو علاء
12-05-2007, 20:08
So, now we know for sure who composed that karabtak hicaz peserv.
This doesn't tell us where that "ishaqi"/"shaqi" came from!
We also know that karabtak pesrev is a particular category of pesrev that mixes up composed portions (hane) with solo improvisation ones.
And, then, we know that the two sole pieces of this kind we know of to date (the segah and hicaz ones) belong to the same composer - Hizir Aga.
A couple of questions remain unanswered: are ther more karabtak persrev by other composers? And is the Arab tahmilah pattern derived from karabtak pesrev?
By the way, we have more interesting Arab interpretations of the segah karabtak - one by Sami Shawwa, Qasabgi and 'ali Ar-rashidi (Columbia record) here (http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1712#post1712), another by Shawwa, Kalkyjian, Mansur 'awadh and 'amin Buzari here (http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1711#post1711) and a third version as a prelude to a waslah by 'abbas Al-bilidi featuring matta' hayatak bi-l-'ahbab, performed by George Michel and Fahmi 'awadh, here (http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1549#post1549).

AmbroseBierce
13-05-2007, 03:26
By the way, we have more interesting Arab interpretations of the segah karabtak - one by Sami Shawwa, Qasabgi and 'ali Ar-rashidi (Columbia record) here (http://here), another by Shawwa, Kalkyjian, Mansur 'awadh and 'amin Buzari here (http://here) and a third version as a prelude to a waslah by 'abbas Al-bilidi featuring matta' hayatak bi-l-'ahbab, performed by George Michel and Fahmi 'awadh, here (http://here).

Where? Could you correct the links please? Thanks a lot!

أبو علاء
13-05-2007, 11:51
Sorry, Paul. Done.

أبو علاء
13-05-2007, 12:07
A fourth version has just been posted here (http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showpost.php?p=17591&postcount=3), preluding a waslah by Nagat 'ali.

Najib
14-05-2007, 15:14
Anton, thanks for your "Fakk Talasem" contribution.

Guys thanks for all of you, this has been a wonderful thread!

Fred don't ever give up on this section. This is so useful indeed.

أبو علاء
26-03-2011, 17:11
لقد حملني ما دار بيني وبين إحدى آخر المنضمّين إلى عضويّة المنتدى، وهي باحثة لبنانيّة تدرس بالولايات المتّحدة، على البحث بين ملفّاتي فعثرت على هذا التّسجيل الّذي أرفعه ههنا، وكان أعطانيه مصطفى سعيد وهو من مقتنيات الشّيخ خالد آل ثاني، لهما الشّكر الجزيل ؛ وهذا التّسجيل منقول عن اسطوانات كولومبيا وهو من تسجيلات سامي الشّوّا ومحمّد القصبحي وعلي الرّشيدي وهو لبشرف من مقام البياتي يقدّمه مذيع الشّركة باسم "بشرف إسحاقي البياتي" تقديما لا يحتمل أيّ شكّ أو التباس.
وما لفت نظري هنا هو أنّ هذا البشرف الكلاسيكيّ البناء بخلاف بشرف الحجاز الّذي افتتح به هذا الموضوع بدا لي في نبرته وجمله مرشّحا لأن يكون أحد البشارف الّتي وضعها ملحّنون عرب مثلما نبّأتني به الأخت الباحثة ممّا لم أكن أعرف ؛ ولكن سواء أصحّ تقديري أم خاب فإنّ هذا البشرف الجديد المنسوب لإسحاقي يثير أسئلة جديدة حول هذا اللّغز عن سرّ هذه النّسبة أهي لملحّن عثمانيّ هو إسحاق الطّنبوري، وقد ذكر لنا الإخوة أنّهم لم يعثروا له عن أيّ بشرف من مقام الحجاز فضلا عن البياتي، أم لنمط مخصوص من البشارف على طراز القره بطاق، وهذا البشرف البيات بلا ريب ليس من ذلك النّمط، أم أنّه نسبة إلى ملحّن عربيّ (يهوديّ ؟) لا نعرف عنه شيئا ؟ على أيّ حال باب الاجتهاد لا يزال كما ترون مفتوحا، والبشرف بديع بحقّ، أهديه للأخت الكريمة ولكم.