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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : ProtoPsalti Mitri el Morr المرتل متري المر



abusalmaa
28-10-2005, 19:43
ProtoPsalti Mitri el Morr المرتل متري المر

By our friend Zeuvs Tarab.

zeuvs
02-04-2006, 13:18
نسمع هنا ايضا ترتيلان بصوت متري افندي المر
الترتيل الاول اليوم يوم القيامه و فيه مزيج من اللغه العربيه و القبطيه
اما التسجيل الثاني فاظنه في اللغه القبطيه
احترامي للجميع

zeuvs
02-04-2006, 17:36
بعد السؤال تبين ان المرتل هنا لبناني و ان اللغه يوناني اعتذر للخطأ

Najib
03-04-2006, 13:45
وألف شكر على هذه الملفات السوبر نادره

المرتل هو متري المر من مواليد ألأسكله وهي الأسم التركي لميناء طرابلس
و
قد ولد في عام 1881 وتوفي كمرتل الكرسي الأنطاكي في بيروت عام 1969

وله كتب كثيره في الموسيقى البيزنطيه العربيه

طبعا الملف الأول بالعربيه وهو قطعة اليوم يوم القيامة التي تعلن قمة الفصح في صيام الكنيسة الشرقيه

والثاني باليونانيه ويعني بواجب الأستئهال وهوقطعه تغبيط للعذراء مريم

عربيا قد ألف أناشيد قوميه وموشح ظبية الأنس للأسف ليسوا لدي

وقد تعرف على والدي في أواخر حياته وأهداه من قطعه الكثير فكان يعتبر أن والدي من المرتلين الأهل أن يكملوا رسالته

وكان يغنج أمي ويقول لها يا إبنة مينتي تحببا بميناء طرابلس مسقط رأسه


Protopsalti (means first chantor) Mitri el Morr 1881-1969 was the most prolific composer and translater to Arabic of the Byzantine art

These are indeed very rare gems recorded when he was at a young age.

They are much better than his older recordings when he was in his nineties.

Anton Efendi
26-04-2006, 18:47
Indeed, thanks for these. I was actually surprised that he barely had any trace of Constantinopolitan style in his chanting. His style is so overwhelmingly Arabized. I was surprised at that.

But hearing him again makes so much sense of the prevailing style of chanting in the Levant and Lebanon in particular which he so severely influenced, for good or bad.

Your father, Najib, also has a deeply Arabized style, but he does retain, as does Bishop Qorban, some of the proper Byzantine phraseology. Murr displays some of that too, but the style is so overwhelmingly Arabized. Compare that style with these recordings from Konstantinos Priggos (+1964) and Thrasyboulos Stanitsas (+1987).

3amr
26-04-2006, 20:19
I just happened to see Mitri Efendi's son on TV last sunday, where he made a guest appearance with the choir during mass (due to the occasion).

His name is Elias I think (I forgot really), and he's quite old now (over seventy I think).

well, to get down to the point, the man is nothing short of amazing for his age.

as for the greek chanting, it reminds me a bit of turkish singing (just in vocal production and voice movement, not the music itself), but sounds very close to what I generally associate with byzantine chanting.

Najib
28-04-2006, 11:28
In private messages I spoke to Frederic and Abu Ala about the first Mitri el Morr file "Al Yaouma Yaoumoul Qiyamah" that is uploaded here as sung by Mitri in his early life.

I think there is a lot of "Nahdah" elements in this recording, but in order to compare you need to listen to the piece as sung by a choir (the mount Lebanon choir0 using Mitri's own music notation.

Please compare and let me know.

Anton Efendi
28-04-2006, 15:49
But that's my point exactly. SEM is consciously moving away from the Murr style to more proper Byzantine phraseology and articulation. This has been Joseph Yazbeck's mission. Even when they use Murr's notes, they usually try to interpret the basic notes in accordance with Byzantine tradition (as filtered through Simon Karas' theory, and as filtered through the performances of early Consantinopolitan modern chanters such as Priggos and Stanitsas, etc.)

This particular recording, while crisp, is actually quite conservative in its interpretation, and may have been consciously trying to remain faithful to the letter of Murr's composition. I'll have more on this topic some other time.

But there's another recording of this same piece by SEM, where the played around with it more, introducing some Greek-influenced phrases to it, etc. I'll post it as soon as I can locate my CD! The introductory doxa is chanted by Georges Abu Haidar and the Kai nyn by Nicholas Rahbani (I think in the recording you posted it's Tony Maalouf and Jean el-Khal, respectively).

But listen to these selections, for example. (Please, if you could add .wma and .asf extensions so that I can upload some of these instead of linking them).

The first three are the same piece but in Greek and the long slow version (performed by Konstantinos Bilalis and Athanasios Pappathanasiou). It's a composition by Manuel Chrysaphes performed with a terirem by Petros Lampadarios in the middle. I'm linking to all three (first (http://www.ecclesia.gr/Multimedia/Audio_Index/Tapes/Apo_to_Pathos_stin_Anastasi/12a.wma) and third (http://www.ecclesia.gr/Multimedia/Audio_Index/Tapes/Apo_to_Pathos_stin_Anastasi/14a.wma) by Chrysaphes, the second (http://www.ecclesia.gr/Multimedia/Audio_Index/Tapes/Apo_to_Pathos_stin_Anastasi/13a.wma) by Lampadarios. You should hear them in order, 1, 2, 3.). Listen to the phrasing and articulation/intepretation of the basic signs. As you may know, Byzantine manuscripts used to have more signs than the ones we use today, many of which were specifically qualitative signs supposed to guide in the performance and interpretation.

Here's also the same piece (http://www.ecclesia.gr/Multimedia/Audio_Index/Tapes/easter_orthrosan_animera.asf) but in the regular version (i.e., the same version as that of Murr) chanted by the Georgios Remoundos choir (it's the second piece in this recording, about 1 min 45 secs. into the file).

A good example of an attempt to faithfully follow the theories of the (19th c.) "teachers," more specifically Chourmouzios Chartophylax and Chrystanthos of Madyton, is the work of Ioannes Arvanites and Giorgos Bilalis. I'm attaching a piece composed by Arvanites and performed by Bilalis' choir, the Romeiko Ensemble. It's an Axion Estin in the first mode.

The third teacher (of the New Method of analytical chant notation developed between 1814 and 1821) is Gregorios Protopsaltes (http://www.ec-patr.net/en/history/gregory-byzantios.htm). Here's a piece (http://www.ecclesia.gr/Multimedia/Audio_Index/Tapes/Apo_to_Pathos_stin_Anastasi/15a.wma) (Easter koinonikon) by him in the third mode, performed by K. Bilalis and A. Pappathanasiou.

Najib
28-04-2006, 17:45
I am not completely in favour of it. My problem is that I heard their recording of the Liturgy in the same month where I came back from Mount Athos.

Coming back from there I brought the divine liturgy CD as recorded by Simonos Petra. Unfortunately their version (SEM) was an obvious cheap imitation of the Simonos Petra version. When I want to hear a choir singing an exact Byzantine tradition I would rather hear it in Greek as originally intended.

Twisting the Arabic pronounciation to make it sound nice for Byzantine singing is simply against my religion!

Also I have the book of Stanitsas' compostitions and I think, like Mitri el Morr, there is a lot of personal interpretation involved here, not just taking everything "a la lettre".

I will listen to the samples, thanks a lot for providing these.

Anton Efendi
28-04-2006, 19:18
I obviously agree with you on most of what you said. I sometimes find the loose borrowing from Simonos Petras (whose choir I actually don't like at all), Vasilikos, or Angelopoulos, to be quite uncritical, esp. when these three choirs/psaltes are not necessarily being faithful themselves or adopting debatable interpretations. I don't mind borrowing beautiful phrases but excessive modeling after secondary sources (and everyone since the 19th c. is a secondary source. Actually, a tertiary source, since the teachers themselves were intepreters of the older teachers, etc.) can be quite problematic. Angelopoulos, e.g., has made logical inferences about interpretation that are not supported in fact in the manuscripts themselves, or even in Karas' theoretical work!

I also agree with you on the problems with language adaptation.

However, that is no excuse for taking the existing tradition in the Levant at face value, esp. with its excessive Arabization and tendency towards either tarab or mijana-style ornamentation.

Of course you are right about Stanitsas being influenced by Turkish styles, and thus he too is to be handled with care. But he stands in a line of tradition from Navpliotes through Priggos, and thus preserves a link to earlier 19th c. performances.

But the thing I like about Bilalis is his research into the manuscripts and his attempt to rely as much as possible on the "teachers," etc. (He -- The Romeiko Ensemble -- recently published a Divine Liturgy CD that contained a previously unpublished Cheroubikon and Koinonikon by the Byzantine master Ioannes Kladas.) That in the end is what the standard is. You go and try to consult the originals as much as possible. Of course, normal people don't have that luxury, so hopefully we will continue to see people publish the classic books from the 18th and 19th c. with the proper analytical explanation based on the extra signs in the manuscripts -- the manuscripts of the masters -- as opposed to the aural reliance on secondaries like Stanitsas and Priggos.

In that sense, while SEM's efforts are laudable, and a step in the right direction, they clearly fall short of the mark.

Anton Efendi
28-04-2006, 19:47
Also, while it's great to have the books by Priggos, Stanitsas, Karamanis, etc., there is really no substitute for getting the works of the masters: Petros Peloponesseos, Iakovos Protopsaltes, Manuel Chrysaphes, Gregorios Protopsaltes, etc.

Hakem
28-04-2006, 20:22
If I may add a point to this debate. I wish to comment on the terminology used on this thread: Why are we taking the Greek Byzantine to be the "real" Byzantine while the Arabic is merely "Arabized"?

The Byzantine Empire was vast, and each part has adopted and added to what we call now Byzantine. Despite the fact that the language of this civilization was Greek as a lingua franca of the eastern Mediterranean, this does not mean the modern Greek nation-state. Just as Arabo-Islamic heritage extended from Spain to China, but it does mean that all peoples were only Arabs or Muslims ...etc.

What is now in Greece is Greek Byzantine, what we have in Antioch is Antinochian or Arabic Byzantine (since we now express ourselves in that language). We are inheritors of Byzantine culture just as the Greek nation-state is. St. John of Damascus (born in Damascus, died in Jerusalem), used Greek like we are using English now, as a lingua franca, but he was Antiochian Orthodox, a native of Greater Syria. Let us not forget that the heartlands of Byzantium were not only what is now Greece, but most importantly, Anatolia and Greater Syria.

So, I am too not in favour of blind imitation believing that interpretation of Byzantine music from Greece is "real" or "pure" Byzantium, while Antiochian is not because it has been “corrupted” by Arabic styles. Just as the Antiochian has changed and interacted with other cultures and traditions, so did the same tradition in Greece. Nothing remained/remains the same, and therefore, contemporary Greek interpretation of music is not a standard. Each culture needs to express itself using its own aesthetic sensitivities.

Anton Efendi
28-04-2006, 20:55
I wasn't talking about Greece, so I never made the identification of Greece with Byzantine. If anything, what I'm pointing to is Turkey, or the Ottoman Empire to be more precise. While I do agree on the problem of terminology, your presentation is nevertheless problematic in some sense as well as anachronistic.

I don't have time to elaborate, but will do so soon. But, very briefly, in terms of music, there is an issue of musical phraseology, that has nothing to do any of the issues you raise.

Thanks.

Najib
28-04-2006, 23:20
Hi also to be quick, I have two points regarding your reply post.

1- Why should an Arabic chanter singing with a perfect Arabic language in an Arabic church have an "Arabicised" style?

2- The tarab element isn't an ornament. This is the fundamental part of a piece. The creative element of tarab isn't an addition, it is at the very heart of Arabic music.

This is why I was happy to hear Mitri el Morr singing so creatively one of his pieces. Where if you think of what he put in notation as a motif, it is the rendition of the piece that counts!

Anton Efendi
29-04-2006, 00:15
It's not an issue of "should" or "shouldn't". Everyone is free to do whatever they please. I am not a dogmatic purist in this regard, seeking to force homogeneity in performance.

That said, part of my reasoning is that the music existed before Murr. Therefore, the music has its rules, and a long tradition with clear, if at one point lost, phrases and stylistic guides. I think that under the guise of cultural variety you end up losing the way (or whatever of it we can still recover) in which the people who wrote this music performed it or conceptualized it. It's the same kind of question regarding classical music. "Should" or "can" people interpret it in a variety of ways, even turning it into pop, or what have you? Sure you can! Will it be beautiful? In most cases, absolutely! Does this mean we stop performing it in the classical way, according to our research into the manuscripts, etc.? Of course not!

So I am very weary of multicultural arguments because many times they actually rely on really problematic assumptions of their own.

For instance, your premise of "Arab" is itself problematic. You showed on this forum the ties between Lebanese Rahbani songs and Syriac Maronite church music. Do we bill any of it as "Arab"? (This is not about Lebanon being Arab or not, it's a completely different argument. Just to be clear.) It's sung in modern colloquial Lebanese Arabic, sure. But just like you had problems with talking about "pure" Greek, or "pure" Byzantine, etc. why is it that we talk freely about "pure" Arab anything?! Isn't music in Lebanon and Syria influenced by a variety of elements (Armenian, Gypsy, Turkish, etc.) just as much as you note about Greek music and others?

So indeed Murr's rendition was beautiful, displaying excellent vocal capabilities ('urab) and feel, and paying tribute to the tarab tradition. I never denied that, nor do I have a problem with it. Does this make it somehow more "authentic" to the (preconceived) "Arab" Church in Lebanon, rendering it "its own"? Don't you think that this, ironically, ends up reviving a nationalist outlook (in which Murr did take part in, by the way) that Hakem had a problem with?

So for instance, despite spending the first part of his post talking about the regional melting pot, the post ends up reducing Antiochian to Arab (what happened to Syriac, for example?), and positing clearly (if not rigidly) defined cultures. It ends up defeating the entire purpose of the earlier argument in the post! If we're talking about the Ottoman or Byzantine cultural melting pots, then the arguments I'm criticizing here only contradict that outlook. In that sense, I stick with my chosen "-ized" qualifier, as it implies the addition of a particular aspect into a set built around a multitude of aspects, which we now, for heuristic purposes, label according to nationalist labels.

Najib
29-04-2006, 11:47
We need to focus on the music here away from political debates.

This is what I understood from your postings:

You said SEM's attempt is a step in the right direction. And you used "Arabicised" to qualify a performance. To me that means that you consider the current situation a not authentic enough situation since you can always go a step before by moving up in the hierarchy of teachers/students.

This is like saying Abdo el Hamuli should have stuck to singing the Beste and Sharki that he heard in Istanbul rather than evolving the dor style of singing. For me the dor is authentic enough to learn, research, and reproduce.

I too respect all attempts in producing church music, in particular, and most kind of music in general. However I consider the Arabic music to be my preferred interpretation when using an Arabic language without claiming exclusive rights on what is Arabic. And by Arabic music I mean the turn of the twenty century makamic music that had Syriac, Coranic, Persian, Byzantine/Ottoman as its rawafed. (So yes we can bill a lot of the music you mentioned above as Arab without claiming exclusivity, in fact this is why it is allowed on this forum).

I don't see a music that needs correcting or further authentication. However I encourage people to go and research and perform authentic music. It is extremely healthy. This is one of my reasons of studying Greek language, and why I try to perform with Ottoman music groups in London.

أبو علاء
29-04-2006, 19:02
Gentlemen, allow me to introduce a small reminder without interfering in the substantive debate concerning Byzantine/Orthodox church chant as I'm totally ignorant in this field. I will not debate the political background to the various positions exposed here because we decided once for all right from the beginning politics per se is not a matter to debate in this forum, which does not mean at any rate the people who set it up and are presently running it do not have their own political perspective nor that the very idea of creating the forum, its object, its aims and its broad policy are totally unrelated to such political perspective. But this is not the point here. The fact is that this forum is dedicated to Arab and oriental classical music and is articulated on such fundamental concepts as maqam/modal music, tarab, waslah/fasil, improvisation/ornamentation, "freestyle"/personalised/variable vocal and/or instrumental performances...etc We're interested in such musical/vocal trends as orthodox church chants only inasmuch as they are closely related to the above mentioned concepts. Notwithstanding the judgement one may have on Morr music or Dimitry Coutya's interpretations as authentic in being faithful to the shear Byzantine tradition or deviant from it under tarab influence or by their "too arabized" or "arabicized" style, such deviation, such influence and "arbization" ("arabicization") are is the very reason of their presence in this section and this forum. This is simply not the place to defend authentic shear Byzantine tradition or to promote it.

Anton Efendi
02-05-2006, 18:38
Here is what is likely the oldest ever recording of this same piece (al-yawma yawmou l-qiyama. Doxastikon Anastaseos Emera) and of Byzantine chant that we have on record (as far as I know) courtesy of the invaluable Dimitri Koubaroulis of www.analogion.com. It's by the protopsalte of the Patriarchate in the Fanar (Istanbul), Iakovos Nafpliotes (http://www.analogion.com/Nafpliotis/NafpliotisBiography.html), the last of the Byzantine masters.

The recordings were made by the invaluable Orfeon Records (http://www.analogion.com/Nafpliotis/_orfeon.jpg), who around the same time were recording Cemil Bey and other masters, and without the fantastic work of the Blumenthal Brothers, all this treasure would have been lost. The recordings seem to have taken place between 1913-1918. The quality of course is archival.

Najib
02-05-2006, 19:43
for the very rare file Anton.

I'm hoping tomorrow to put the doxologia Acem Kurdi that my dad composed in the fourties.

koukouzelis
18-09-2006, 12:40
نسمع هنا ايضا ترتيلان بصوت متري افندي المر
الترتيل الاول اليوم يوم القيامه و فيه مزيج من اللغه العربيه و القبطيه
اما التسجيل الثاني فاظنه في اللغه القبطيه
احترامي للجميع
للأسف لم أستطع الاستماع لهذه التراتيل لأني لم أتمكن من تحميلها إلى جهازي فهل يمكنك إرشادي إلى كيفية تحميلها أو ترسلها بواسطة الإيميل؟

أبو علاء
18-09-2006, 12:47
مرحبا ؛ لا تحاول الاستماع إلى الملفّات مباشرة دون حفظها فذلك غير ممكن لسبب فنّيّ، ولكن يمكنك حفظ الملفّات على حاسوبك أوّلا ثمّ الاستماع إليها إلاّ أن تكون لم تؤكّد عضويّتك بعد (عادة بعد التسّجيل تصل العضو الجديد رسالة بها رابط لتأكيد العضويّة، وبمجرّد الضّغط على ذلك الرّابط يصير عضوا كامل الحقوق).