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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : A present from Benno Haüpl 2/3: Taqsims kaman by Sami Ash-shawwa



أبو علاء
17-06-2007, 21:09
The second episode of this series of recordings offered by our friend alnimsaoui features two nice taqsims by Sami Ash-shawwa from the late twenties. Both pieces show the extent of Sami's virtuosity, even though sometimes overemphasized by his play, but what an extraordinarily mastered bow technique! The sound quality is perfect - this polyphon record is probably an electrical one, isn't it Benno (Fred)?



تقسيمان بياتي وراست
كمان سامي الشّوّا
بوليفون
V.50621-22, 1929


في هذه الحلقة الثّانية من سلسلة التّسجيلات المهداة من صديقنا "النّمساوي" أقدّم إليكم هذين التّقسيمين على الكمان لسامي الشّوّا من اسطوانة بوليفون صدرت سنة 1929، وهما يكشفان مدى اقتدار سامي وتمكّنه من قوسه رغم أنّه يبدو أحيانا مبالغا في إبراز تلك القدرات وذاك التّمكّن على حساب التّماسك النّغميّ والتّركيبيّ للتّقسيم ؛ والتّسجيل في الوجهين ممتاز، ولعلّ هذه الاسطوانة من اسطوانات بوليفون الكهربائيّة.

Najib
18-06-2007, 14:21
First thanks a lot Benno for this gem.

After listening to the bayat recording, I believe it is a Husseyni recording not purely bayat, wella eyh?

alnimsaoui
20-06-2007, 01:10
Yes, Abu Alaa, this is an electrical recording. I think that by 1926 evrything was electric. You say that Sami Shawa 'overemphasizes' his virtuosity. Yes, I know what you mean. This is quite an advantage, though - for Western ears. And in addition we all know that Bayati and Rast can work well if you want to get Westerners acquainted with Mid-Eastern sounds.
You know that I would like to compile a CD with Mid-Eastern music targeted at Europeans. These recordings would be first choice for such a project, wouldn't they?

Najib, - AHHHH - how I wished that I could follow and understand your reasoning (''Husseyini, not purely Bayat''). I really envy you knowledgeable people.
If you have an idea how I can learn to identify Maqams by ear, let me know.
I fear that I would have to learn it patiently from scratch like a child learns to walk and talk.

3amr
20-06-2007, 04:53
And in addition we all know that Bayati and Rast can work well if you want to get Westerners acquainted with Mid-Eastern sounds.

That's a surprize for me, I would have thought Bayat and Rast would be difficult for untrained ears to understand (not as difficult as Siga or Saba obviously), but something like Nahawand or Kurd which does not contain microtones does seem einfacher doesn't it?


If you have an idea how I can learn to identify Maqams by ear, let me know.
I fear that I would have to learn it patiently from scratch like a child learns to walk and talk.

Yes, I'm afraid it will need some patience. Two years ago I was a hopeless case, I couldn't tell rast apart from bayyati apart from anything really, even though I knew most of the major modes theoritically, and could even play them (relatively in tune), I could not seem to identify them by ear. That has changed now, slowly, and two years on, I still have some trouble (mainly when I can't concentrate hard enough, or when the singer refuses to give me a Qafla (cadenza) to help me).

Tips to help you: it would be very helpful if you understand the whole system theoritcally, learn all the modes and you'll find it easier to understand the music and what's happening, but this is not really obligatory, what is obligatory however is: listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, and some more listen, but with real concentration on the degrees of the scale his using, and where he's going and so on. Soon enough, you'll surprize even yourself. (that's a promise).

Hattouma
20-06-2007, 09:54
Thank you very much Benno ... The fora comments + listening helped me alot in recognizing some of the main maqams (and still has way to go :) ..
the Rast taqsim was included by Fred in his Prince Du Violon arabe Club Du Disque arabe cd ,i am not sure about the bayyati one. The quality here is surely better . I agree it is great for a cd edition ! (I think Bayyati could sound sweet for any ear ,the Rast could be a bit challenging for the westeren ear but i wouldn't really know ,It would be intersting to hear more from you about this ).
Thanks again ,
Hatim

fredlag@noos.fr
20-06-2007, 10:21
the Rast taqsim was included by Fred in his Prince Du Violon arabe Club Du Disque arabe cd ,i am not sure about the bayyati one. The quality here is surely better

Salamet wedanak ya batal. Only the polyphone rast taqsim (side B) was included, it is exactly the same record here provided by Benno, at a very slightly different speed, and on the CD, of course, it's professionally filtered with excellent results. The bayyati one was not included, the bayyati non-metric taqsim on the CD is a Gramophone record. I will provide as soon as possible the reference of all the Shawwa records included in the CD, the mention of which I was FORBIDDEN to put by Hachlef, allah yerhamo.

أبو علاء
20-06-2007, 10:38
Benno, 3amr is both the youngest active member of this forum and the one with the soundest judgement and the wisest of all of us. So, you should follow his advice when he says what is obligatory however is: listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, and some more listen. Personally, I have never had a single theretical lesson in music, scales, modes, notation...etc and, even though I know my "knowledge" remains much limited, whatever I really know about this art, I got it only by following such motto. This said, as I know you're interested in an infinity of musical styles and identities, this might be an even harder exercice.
Our friend Zeryab has drawn my attention to an old thread in which the rast taqsim was already uploaded by.... myself! Sorry about that, this is what happens when one can no longer count on their own memory. The fact that the index of the instrumental section is still to be done doesn't help much either.
Now, since Benno's recording is longer and of better quality, I deleted mine. For further info, check the mini index of Sami Ash-shawwa

Najib
20-06-2007, 12:08
Dear Benno,

Thanks for taking the time to interact with us. This is really a joy.

In addition to all what was said above (said by the best self-didact people I've known in my whole life), you can visit this not very complete but superbly helpful site, and not only you can see the theory explained, but also you can interactively play with the notes which I find superbly helpful:

www.maqamworld.com

Now back to the bayat-Huseyni thing. In this case the explanation is quite simple and very well understood by westerners. Roughly speaking the difference is that, despite both of them starting on Re, bayati (Ussak in Turkey) hovers between Sol and Re so plays on a fourth from Re, whilst Huseyni (same name in Turkey) hovers on a fifth (La) from Re. So Samy immediately in the teksim hovers on the La, declaring a clear Huseyini atmosphere not a bayat one.

Hope that what I said is helpful. But even if it wasn't don't be discouraged, keep listening, and keep interacting.

Salamat
Najib

alnimsaoui
23-06-2007, 11:40
Thank you all for your encouraging comments!
I reaklly appreciate that you good people take me by your hands and guide me into the comprehension of maqams.
I will try to answer glaobally, not to individual postings.
First of all, I think that Oriental instrumental and vocal music has some great magic to it, comparable to very few musical styles in the world.
This is why I would like to make it known and accepted among Westerners.
Nowadays - with the World Music craze-, the younger listeners are more open to unusual sounds. There have been previous attempts to get Opera buffs to listen to Oriental music:
some Indian Raga LPs were published in Classical Music series, just as Al-Manyalawi was published in the USA on the (western) classical Victrola label. So: it can be done...

Personally, when discovering Mid-Eastern music, after a while I found out that I was attracted by 1) outstanding classical voices, 2) taxims of Saba, Bayati and Rast modes and 3) emotional performances (like Oumm Kalthoum, Issirene El-Affrit...).
This I want to promote in the West.

Taking it from there: yes, listening and listening is the key to it all, but the more you get into it, the more you have to ''understand'' what's going on. For this, the maqamworld.com site is a real good one - though a challenge, too, because it's overwhelming. (Thanks, Najib!)
Unfortunately, I do not play any instrument. That does not make it any easier, does it?
I wished I could explain WHY I was initially attracted by the three modes mantioned above, but I can't.
My wife, who's into Western Classical Music, said that this Taxim Bayati by Sami Shawa could have been composed by Vivaldi. This encourages me alot in my project.

3amr said, ''listen, but with real concentration on the degrees of the scale his using, and where he's going''. Yes, I do. Even then, you may agree that the REAL fascination is the surprise. The Taxim Bayati by Moheddine Bayoun in the other thread sort of ''kicks you off your stool'' because Bayoun takes you to unexpected directions, doesn't he? That's the master art of taxim: to surprise the listener. It is AFTERWARDS that you understand what he was really doing. That it was quite within the rules of esthetics to go THERE (and not to the usual, expected direction).

You comments on this highly appreciated.
Thanks again, Najib, 3amr, Hattouma, Abu Alaa, Fred.

أبو علاء
24-06-2007, 13:40
3amr said, ''listen, but with real concentration on the degrees of the scale his using, and where he's going''. Yes, I do. Even then, you may agree that the REAL fascination is the surprise. The Taxim Bayati by Moheddine Bayoun in the other thread sort of ''kicks you off your stool'' because Bayoun takes you to unexpected directions, doesn't he? That's the master art of taxim: to surprise the listener. It is AFTERWARDS that you understand what he was really doing. That it was quite within the rules of esthetics to go THERE (and not to the usual, expected direction).



Based on my modest knowledge of the classical repertoire, I would say one of the fundamental features of classical Arab music (or tarab) aesthetics is precisely to operate according to a mix of established rules, fiwed patterns, melodic and rythmic agreed logics on the one hand and surprise effect, the artist's inventive genius and his ability to break new grounds within the previously described framework on the other hand. This applies both on the macro and micro levels. Thus, I believe both who think such music didn't have any recognized rules and was totally left to individualy imagination as well as those who thought everything about it was given and known in advance are equally wrong.

BdColonel
29-04-2010, 16:11
What beautiful pieces, thank you very much!

The Bayati improvisation, isn't it also called Oussak? That is the main mode used in the music of the Greek islands.

أبو علاء
29-04-2010, 18:49
The Bayati improvisation, isn't it also called Oussak? That is the main mode used in the music of the Greek islands.
I can't answer this question without listening back to this piece, but, concerning (Turkish) 'ushshaq (this is the wasy we pronounce it in Arabic), you have a Greek sample here (http://zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2044&highlight=ussak) and Turkish samples here (http://zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1983&highlight=ussak) inter alia, while this thread here (http://zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?t=852&highlight=ussak)discusses the difference between bayati and 'ushshaq.