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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : Ya zalemni (Cinema Rivoli 11-11-1954, W2), excellent concert



الشيخ سيد
25-02-2007, 05:19
حسب معلومات إذاعة الأغانى - غنتها أم كلثوم أول مرة فى 4 فبراير 1954
وتسجيلنا هنا هو من ثامن مرة غنتها ست الكل فى 11 نوفمبر 1954
من حفلة أقامتها جمعية الهلال الأحمر فى سنيما ريفولى
ضمن إسبوع النور والأمل ولصالح جمعية المكفوفين
أذيعت يوم الإثنين الماضى وضاع منى تسجيل حلقة ألحان زمان بسببها وإن كنت لست بنادم - أهديها لكل الأحباب وبصفة خاصة لطالبها أبو الغيث

تمّ حذف الملفّ بعد رفع نسخة أنقى تجدونها في الصّفحة الثّانية من هذا الموضوع. أبو علاء

أبو علاء
25-02-2007, 10:08
شكرا جزيلا يا رؤوف ؛ لم تخسر شيئا من حلقة ألحان زمان فقد كانت عن المونولوج ولم تأت بأيّ جديد أو مفيد في نظري.
لقد فاتني تسجيل هذه الحفلة كما فات أبا الغيث، وإن كنت غير مهووس بمسألة التّورايخ فإنّ التّاريخ يبدو مشكلا هنا إذا ما علمنا أنّ أمّ كلثوم غنّت يا ظالمني في حلفة نادي الضّبّاط يوم 30 أكتوبر، أي قبل خمسة أيّام، فهل يمكن أن تكرّر نفس الأغنية في فترة زمنيّة قصيرة كهذه ؟ ثمّ إنّ معنى ذلك هو أنّ الحفلة لم تكن يوم خميس، فهل هذا مألوف في حفلات أمّ كلثوم خاصّة والحفلات الفنّيّة الكبيرة عامّة ؟

luay
25-02-2007, 14:32
So, based on Raouf's information, she sang it 8 times in 11 months. Considering that there is
definitely a break of three months or so in her "mawasim", this means she basically sang this song every month!! If this information is accurate, we have a clear evidence here that Om Kulthoum and her audience LOVED this song like no other songs.

By the way, thanks to the complete versions of songs that are being uploaded on the forum, which allow us to hear what goes on before music/singing start, I noticed that the most "shouts" and "requests" for a song by the audience was for Ya Dhalimni!!!! We have evidence for that in several files on the forum.

Even in one of the Lebanon concerts that Burhan uploaded, the announcer tells the audience that Om Kulthoum "would come back with your loved song Ya Dhalimni".

Thanks Raouf.
Luay

luay
25-02-2007, 14:41
ما علمنا أنّ أمّ كلثوم غنّت يا ظالمني في حلفة نادي الضّبّاط يوم 30 أكتوبر، أي قبل خمسة أيّام، ؟

Why five days Abu A'laa? It's 11 days.

The interesting thing is that neither the October 30th nor the November 11 is a "first Thursday", so this might mean she had another concert in between. Is that possible that
she had three concerts, each with three songs, within 11 days?

Luay

omkolthom
25-02-2007, 15:27
السلام عليكم
كانت أم كلثوم تغنى فى الخميس الأول من كل شهر فى حفلات الاذاعةوالتى كانت تتراوح من ست الى ثمان حفلات فى الموسم
لكن كانت تقام حفلات لمناسبات خاصة مثل عيد الثورة عيد الشرطةو مثل هذا الحفل وغير ذلك وكانت الاذاعة ايضا تنقلها لم تكن بالصرورة يوم الخميس

وفى هذا الحفل غنت
جددت حبك الوصلة الاولى
ياظالمنى الوصلة الثانية
اهل الهوى الوصلة الثالثة

أبو علاء
25-02-2007, 15:43
Why five days Abu A'laa? It's 11 days.
Luay


This is typically me, Luay. I mixed up the dates of 4 February and 11 november. Sorry about that.

fredlag@noos.fr
25-02-2007, 15:51
شكرا على التوضيح يا عاشق أم كلثوم.
وهل أفهم من كلامك ودقة معلوماتك أن أهل الهوى هذه في حوزتك ؟
رأفة بقلوبنا يا ناس فإنها ضعيفة

لقد بدأت في كتابة لائحة لكل حفلات أم كلثوم، استنادا إلى ما تبثه إذاعة الأغاني وما يجود به الإخوة من معلومات، خاصة الصديق محمود، وفواز، وعاشق أم كلثوم على سبيل الذكر وليس الحصر
وأرى أن أرفع هذه المسودة في خلال أسبوع كمُثْبت، ثم يساعد الإخوة على إكمالها وتصحيحها وتنقيحها ،

أبو علاء
25-02-2007, 19:03
وهل أفهم من كلامك ودقة معلوماتك أن أهل الهوى هذه في حوزتك ؟
رأفة بقلوبنا يا ناس فإنها ضعيفة



كلّ يغنّي على ليلاه، إلاّ أنّ لي لَيلَيَيْن:)، فأنا تهمّني أهل الهوى وجدّّدت حبّك معا.

luay
26-02-2007, 02:36
كلّ يغنّي على ليلاه، إلاّ أنّ لي لَيلَيَيْن:)، فأنا تهمّني أهل الهوى وجدّّدت حبّك معا.

and I have the same two "Layla's" :D

Luay

أبو الغيث
03-02-2008, 12:33
تحياتي للجميع بدون استثناء
كما وعدت ... حفلة ريفولي 1954 يا ظالمني

الارتجالات الاعجازية تبدأ منذ الدقيقة 41
واعذروني لغيبتي الطويلة

alffy74
03-02-2008, 15:16
Thanks ya Aba el Ghayth for this wonder!!!! Most people would leave this kind of singing until late in the night, but at 7:30 in the morning, I couldn't find a better way to start my day.

This is a very beautiful and unique performance in many aspects:

First, the audience is quite tamed...there are no uproarings that interrupted Umm Kulthum's wonderful improvisations. She would start with a mood, and thouroughly dwell on it before moving to another. This is very obvious between min 41 and 52.

Second, min 41 and 52 are among the most beautiful impros I have ever heard. I'm not knowledgeable in maqam, and I will let Fred and other experts provide their opinion, but all I know is that she spanned a wide spectrum of her vocal range there. "Atawa3 fi hawak" around min 43:20-43:35 is very nice, as her upper range vocals between 47:40 (el kull) and 49:50.

Third, 61:30-65:30 are heartbreaking. Her vocal emotions are overwhelming. I love the fact that she would start a new sentence with improvisations rather than the original melody. I haven't heard that often before. She did it twice: once with "wadou' el mourri fi hobbi bi kass saddak w higranak..." and again "w ban lel nass dana rou7i".

Fourth, I loved the way the orchestra plays alone in "rahamni elli ferih fiyya" and the way she returned to 'hakitlak' when she was supposed to finish the song. The iqa3 at around 1:12:30 is amazing followed by a small impro mouaqqa3 of 'hakitlak'.

Fifth, Ahmad el Hafnaoui's violin is predominant throughout the song, and extremely beautiful in certain sections.

Overall, a gem performance. We have many "ya zalemni" versions to date, and most, if not all, have a particular flavour. This makes me bow in admiration and respect for a singer whose imagination, creativity and authenticity know no limits.

SALAM!

Alfred

أبو علاء
04-02-2008, 01:21
كما تلاحظون قد سبق رفع هذا التّسجيل مهدى من الشّيخ سيّد... لأبي الغيث، وبالتّالي فإنّي سأحذف الملفّ الأخير إلاّ إذا ما أفدتموني أنّ تسجيل أبي الغيث أنقى من تسجيل رؤوف وأبقي على تعليق ألفريد.

luay
04-02-2008, 01:46
كما تلاحظون قد سبق رفع هذا التّسجيل مهدى من الشّيخ سيّد... لأبي الغيث، وبالتّالي فإنّي سأحذف الملفّ الأخير إلاّ إذا ما أفدتموني أنّ تسجيل أبي الغيث أنقى من تسجيل رؤوف وأبقي على تعليق ألفريد.

I find Abu-l-Ghayth's version to be cleaner than that of Raouf, so I'd actually choose his version to keep, over Raouf's.

Luay

أبو علاء
04-02-2008, 01:53
I find Abu-l-Ghayth's version to be cleaner than that of Raouf, so I'd actually choose his version to keep, over Raouf's.
Luay


Done.

luay
06-03-2008, 03:23
I've had a chance recently to burn this song to a CD, put it in the car, and must say that in the last week I've listened to it at least 10 times in its entirety. As Alfred noted in more details, it has some of the most moving moments, particularly in the Atawea' part, and then in Haketlak. The "calm improvisations" in Atawea' are unbelievable. The stuff starting at 46' 30" is heartbreaking. The way she says "El Kol" at 47' 39" is the CLIMAX of this performance; it epitomizes the lady's mood in this performance.

Hawak, starting at 43' 32", is very nice.

The deep instrumental sound starting at 46' 54"; is this one of the violins or the cello? I personally love the sound of the cello, and unfortunately it's not something we hear in Arabic music, even though it's present in the ensemble (in OK's ensemble, there were three of them).

One of the things that move me most in Om Kulthoum's performances, and one of the reasons that to me she's the best ever, is the way she uses the "sukoon" at the end of one word and emphasizes the letter in the consecutive word; it's so moving and expressive. Listen , for example, to 49' 16" (and then 49' 23") how she stresses the sukoon on the 'k' in Hawak, and emphasizes the 'a' in "albi".
Going high starting around 49' 50", and the way she starts uttering phrases separately (W-Ansa-l-Kul... then, "A'la-Shanak") is very beautiful.

I agree with Alfred's comment about Hafnawi. I remember in one thread Abu A'laa considered Hafnawi to be the "weak link" in Om Kulthoum's ensemble, particularly when he compared him to Qassabji and Abdu Saleh. I remember disagreeing with him on that. This performance shows, for one example, Hafnawai's value (he's very alert to her improvisations, and if you listen carefully, you'll notice that sometimes with his violin he determines or steers the next improvisation).

Of course, the way she goes back to Haketlak at 1h:12m:32s is a story by itself; she was just enjoying singing that she decided to go back to Haketlak, even though it was impossible, but she managed to do it.

I urge everyone to listen to this performance; it's a masterpiece performance by all standards.

Luay

Najib
11-03-2008, 17:19
هذه الحفله درس من ام كلثوم في كيفيّة لفظ حرف النون

تقلب لفظه مئات المرّات في سنين و عشان

تدخل في خانة غير المعقول بالتأكيد

الف شكر

luay
11-03-2008, 19:37
هذه الحفله درس من ام كلثوم في كيفيّة لفظ حرف النون

تقلب لفظه مئات المرّات في سنين و عشان

تدخل في خانة غير المعقول بالتأكيد

الف شكر

Cannot agree with you more Najib. Om Kulthoum's diction in general and articulation of consonants in particular are two major skills behind her tarab-filled performances. And on the forum we have tremendous amount of evidence for these unparalleled skills of the lady.

Luay

alffy74
12-03-2008, 01:56
Although I love Umm Kulthum's diction, I wonder why she sometimes pronounces the letter "h" as "gh". Is it a faulty or a flirtatious way of singing? I tend to think the latter is a better explanation. There are tons of examples, such as "aghl el ghawa" (Ahl el hawa), "el layali kount bitsammi el layali le'bet el khali e ghiyya 3omri ghali" (lessa faker).

SALAM!

Alfred

3amr
12-03-2008, 07:07
I tend to think her "problem" with the letter h was simply because it wasted too much breath. the gh is not nearly one tenth the waste of breath an h is, and eventhough umm kulthum had a very good and long breath, a little bit extra never hurt I guess.

luay
12-03-2008, 18:15
Although I love Umm Kulthum's diction, I wonder why she sometimes pronounces the letter "h" as "gh". Is it a faulty or a flirtatious way of singing? I tend to think the latter is a better explanation. There are tons of examples, such as "aghl el ghawa" (Ahl el hawa), "el layali kount bitsammi el layali le'bet el khali e ghiyya 3omri ghali" (lessa faker).

SALAM!

Alfred

This is news to me!! I've never heard her using "gh" instead of "h". In fact, she always excites me with the way she pronounces the "h" in "We Te*h*gorni We Tensani" in Ya Dhalimni. Also, listen to how she says "A*h*l-el-*H*awa" in the Damascus version; very clear, beautiful, and arousing... Can you give a specific example of where you heard the "h" pronounced "gh"? I'm very curious.

Luay

fredlag@noos.fr
12-03-2008, 19:26
@ Lu'ay :
Umm Kulthum's pronouncing /h/ as /gh/ is very frequent. Just listen for instance to Ahl el-hawa 03/05/1956, one out of two occurences of ahl or hawa is pronounced /aghl/ and /ghawa/. But I disagree with Amr when he explains it as a trick she uses in order to save breath. I rather see it as a kulthumic manierism, expressing extreme passion, and an idiosyncratic signature. It even goes in one instance, in the 03/05/1956 concert, almost as far as /agl/ el-hawa. Of course, the point of articulation of regular /h/ is further down the throat, so this phenomenon can be qualified as "fronting" of the phoneme, but I do not see it as a default in prononciation, it is more like Manyalawi's /b/>/v/ in "el-bolbol gani we-qalli", in which "betnawwah" turns to "vetnawwah" ; it is a mean of endearment and a sigh mixed with the regular letter, i.e. a zakhrafa sawtiyya personnal to UK, not used by other singers.

أبو علاء
12-03-2008, 20:21
@ Lu'ay :
But I disagree with Amr when he explains it as a trick she uses in order to save breath. I rather see it as a kulthumic manierism, expressing extreme passion, and an idiosyncratic signature.
I'm certainly not qualified to formulate a learned opinion regarding the "breathing trick" theory. But, I can assure you this is definitely not specific to 'um kalthum. Such phonetic feature is well widespread among classical singers and mostly among munshidin. I'll manage to pick a few illustrative examples for you and get back to you soon on this.

3amr
12-03-2008, 22:00
Well, the h not only wastes breath, but because it comes from the back of the throat, and is a voiceless fricative, it interrupts the voice completely. If any of you would like to give it a try, try doing in h in the middle of a high note and see what happens (nothing short of a disaster).

In this case, fronting the phenome as fred was saying is very logical, but a number of the instances are in areas of the voice where umm kulthum is actually comfortable, maybe it's started out of necessity and then just became habit. I don't know, and she isn't alive to ask.

alffy74
13-03-2008, 00:13
Thank you all for your input. This is very informative. I had always wondered why she did it. All explanations seem plausible to me. I would like to add a comment that I believe the use of "gh" instead of "h" cannot always be attributed to saving breath, as in many instances, it is very furtive and not sung on high notes.

I personally like it a lot as I find it very playful and flirtatious. But sometimes, it can convey implicit meanings that some might find offensive, especially coming from Umm Kulthum, as in saying "ghawa" instead of "hawa" in "ahl el hawa".

Luay, her clear pronunciation of 'h' in ahl el hawa Damascus version is the exception and not the rule here:)

SALAM!

Alfred

alffy74
27-07-2008, 04:12
I was going through my files, and I realized that I had lost this performance, so i downloaded it again...and again, I was transfixed by it. I missed in my previous comments to point out at the shear beauty of the instrumentation during the last part of the song, after Umm Kulthum repeats "elli" in "elli fere7 fiyya" at 70'58", where the violin and percussion predominate. But again after she surprised everybody, including her musicians, when she goes back to "haketlak" at 72'35". The hitting on the qanun, oud, and violin, but especially the amazing 4-beats on the percussion instrument at 72'58' and 73'03" are mesmerizing. Her initiation of improviation of 'hakitlal" took me by surprise, and I have the impression it had the same effect on the musicians. Did she suddenly change the maqam?
The rhytmic improvisation of "haketlak...." between 73'48" and 74'23" is possibly the most beautiful despite its shortness.

Indeed, what a great performance...I guess it's becoming my favorite among the all superb versions!

SALAM!

Alfred