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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : dastgah and makam



mary farris
07-05-2009, 21:08
Hi-

I'm a beginner to the world of Persian music, a somewhat-less-than beginner to the world of Turkish music, and I'm in search of some historical information about how Turkish makam is related to Persian dastgah. There are so many words, names of scales, etc that are the same (largely Persian adopted into Turkish vocabulary), but to my ears, for example, Turkish Segah doesn't resemble Persian Segah at all.

At what point did the traditions diverge? Or if they never were that strictly related, why do they share so much vocabulary?

I'm open to Arabic maqam, Azeri mugam, Central Asian versians being thrown into the mix...

Thanks in advance!

mary

Najib
08-05-2009, 18:40
Hi Mary,

We don't know anyone who is an expert in Persian music here.

Hopefully some members are and haven't made themselves known and they will reply to your query.

Cheers
Najib

Hattouma
08-05-2009, 21:08
many of us have the same question ,and still looking for answers ,the problem is that experts of persian music mostly write about persian music ,not its relation with the other traditions .still to find such a comparitive study or at least opinions of people familiar with both traditions .

mary farris
08-05-2009, 21:28
Yes, I'm surprised there's not more overlap between the two worlds, people who are deeply knowledgeable in both traditions- but I keep looking!

mary farris
09-05-2009, 00:12
Someone sent me this link, which provides some interesting Persian/Turkish classical music relations...

http://www.showqname.com/intro.htm

Najib
09-05-2009, 00:19
Indeed you are so right to wonder why.

I know a bit about Turkish music.

I know that the main important mevlevi pieces are all written in Parsi and I know that the name of the makams are also derived from Persian.

Even Nahawand is a city in Iran!!

I have to admit that when I played Oud with Persian musicians (a tanbur and duduk players) I couldn't grasp the overlap between the makams at all :-(

greengrass
13-05-2009, 21:48
Hello friends,
I see that in the west we are always trying to understand everything, but this subject is
really important because unites different cultures, and through music we can find a good
language to share.
A very interesting article on this subject is:
ON THE MUSICAL SCALE OF VARIOUS NATIONS- Alexander Ellis 1885
easily available on line

MORIN
07-06-2009, 05:29
Hello friends,
I see that in the west we are always trying to understand everything, but this subject is
really important because unites different cultures, and through music we can find a good
language to share.
A very interesting article on this subject is:
ON THE MUSICAL SCALE OF VARIOUS NATIONS- Alexander Ellis 1885
easily available on line
can you give us the url for this please.

morin

أبو علاء
07-06-2009, 10:59
can you give us the url for this please.




morin



Morin,"easily available online" means all you have to do is to google the title and you'll get it. Here you are (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN00.html).

On the Musical Scales of Various Nations - Alexander Ellis - 1885


This is a transcription, with transcriber's corrections (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVNcorrections.html), of a reproduction of Ellis's article, the original having been published in 1885 in the now defunct Journal of the Society of Arts. This transcriber (Stuart Frazier Allen (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/)) worked from a photocopy of a reproduction published in A Century of Ethnomusicological Thought: (The Garland Library of Readings in Ethnomusicology: A Core Collection of Important Ethnomusicological Articles, Vol. 7), edited by Kay Kaufman Shelemay (http://aaas.fas.harvard.edu/faculty/kay_k_shelemay/).
Each of the 16 sections of the 43 page article (pp. 485-527 (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVNpages.html)) is represented here as a single web page.
I (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN01.html)- Introduction
II (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN02.html)- Musical Scales
III (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN03.html)- Cents
IV (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN04.html)- Theory and Practice
First Division: Heptatonic Scales
V (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN05.html)- Ancient Greece and Modern Europe
VI (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN06.html)- Persia, Arabia, Syria, and Scottish Highlands
VII (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN07.html)- India
VIII (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN08.html)- Singapore
IX (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN09.html)- Burmah
X (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN10.html)- Siam
XI (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN11.html)- Western Africa
Second Division: Pentatonic Scales
XII (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN12.html)- South Pacific
XIII (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN13.html)- Java
XIV (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN14.html)- China
XV (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN15.html)- Japan
XVI (http://stuart.sfa.googlepages.com/MSVN16.html)- Conclusion

greengrass
08-06-2009, 20:15
Excuse me, I don't know the way to send this URL, but it will be better next time to send

the article. Anyway I think it's very interesting. Thank you

أبو علاء
09-06-2009, 01:57
Excuse me, I don't know the way to send this URL, but it will be better next time to send the article.

No problem about it. You could have just paste the link as is in your post. We generally discourage posting links to audio files for instance, but when it comes to refer people to websites to information, and similar material of interest (papers, studies...etc), there's no harm in doing it. It is also allowed to quote the full texts of such papers or studies like this article provided the source is clearly indicated. If I did not reproduce the text in extensu, it was because of a stritctly technical problem, the html version of the text in question containing a higher number of images than the one supported by the forum engine and I did not have the time to eliminate them one by one and adjust the text manually so that it fits in. This said, there's no need for thanks simply because I didn't but search for the article mentioned in your post. You could have posted the link or the text by your own self

ckranich
18-10-2009, 23:24
Hi-
I'm a beginner to the world of Persian music, a somewhat-less-than beginner to the world of Turkish music, and I'm in search of some historical information about how Turkish makam is related to Persian dastgah......
mary

Hello Mary,

I am just following your path ;-)

As a (very) beginner in playing the ney, I also try to link persian/arabic/turkish ney
and of course the underlying music theory. Equal like focusing on the common parts and not so much the differencies between the three religions of the book, I think that it is much worth dealing with the links between all the oriental culture circles....

Kind greetings from the heart of Europe(Vienna/Austria),
from a heart which feels very connected to oriental music and culture,

Christian

3amr
19-10-2009, 00:16
Hi Christian,

If you would allow me to comment on your thoughts.

Many people on the forum here enjoy persian, turkish, and arabic music very much. Do note however that deeper you understand each of those, in which case more differences as well as similarities become apparent, the more you will enjoy and understand what you listen to.

Learning an instrument, even to a modest level, will definitely help you appreciate the music you listen to much more. It is an incredibly useful aid to understand the theory as well.

Considering you live in Vienna, you have an advantage in that you can find many excellent turkish musicians who can help you play the ney and learn turkish music theory. In fact, turkish music theory will help you immensely in understanding arabic music theory as well. But do note that there is no substitute for intensive listening to each type of music, because when you sense how unique and special the spirit is, and when you get used to the musical practices, ornaments, and aesthetics of each, you will be able to get profoundly moved, and derive more from this music than mere enjoyment.

I'm sorry for giving you a lecture here, but I hope you'll find some of this useful.

Take Care, and welcome to the forum again, it is a priceless resource.

Amr

P.S. the persian ney is completely different in technique, it is very impractical for you to try and master both. I recommend turkish because it is somewhat easier, because I expect there are teachers in Wien, and because turkish music will help you with arabic as well.

ckranich
11-11-2009, 17:30
Hi Amr,

Thank you for your comments!


... however that deeper you understand each of those, in which case more differences as well as similarities become apparent, the more you will enjoy and understand what you listen to.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. The more I immerse, the more I enjoy finding both differencies and links.


Learning an instrument, even to a modest level, will definitely help you appreciate the music you listen to much more. It is an incredibly useful aid to understand the theory as well.

Yes, its like beeing able to move from the audience _into_ the music itself. Reading and trying to play simple tunes also helps to 'see on an internal screen' and better understand what I listen too.


Considering you live in Vienna.....
Yes, I already found a teacher for osman ney. The arabic neys are in fact very similar
and I like very much changing between both types. After working hard on the low register of the kiz ney, I noticed that also the low register on the arabic rast are much easier to
archieve. Regarding the persian ney I also had first little success. I learned to produce
a few notes in the first two registers and found a teacher also here in vienna.
(So I will have to find a way to work less and play more....)


But do note that there is no substitute for intensive listening....
....and derive more from this music than mere enjoyment

Yes, I understand it in a similar way. The love affair with this kind of music becomes
more and more intense. Also I have been attracted by the sound of the ney from the
very beginning because it opens the door to a somehow mystical experience...
(I think the jews have a nice picture here of the musican himself becoming a music instrument, a 'container of music'...)


Take Care, and welcome to the forum again, it is a priceless resource.
Yes, priceless in the sense of 'precious' ;-)

Christian