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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : Dimitri Coutya



Najib
14-03-2010, 23:41
Kinonikon Rast

From a CD issued for the 1st anniversary of Dimitri Coutya's death.

From the collection of his son in law Antoine Bitar

Enjoy!

3amr
15-03-2010, 03:51
Dear God! I had forgotten just how beautiful your father's voice was.

Thank you for this wonderful highly tarabic file, and God rest his soul.

kabh01
15-03-2010, 10:33
Ya salam sallim. Absolutely beautiful!

Thanks ever so much Najib. Shame it's too short. Please we need more my friend:)

zbader
15-03-2010, 13:12
My first time ever to hear it in this mode
I doubt anyone else dare to repeat it in a similar way
Thank you Najib
It is a gem

Najib
15-03-2010, 13:24
thanks guys.

Yes I definitely miss that voice. It's so unrepeatable.

Hattouma
16-03-2010, 17:48
ما هذا يا عم ! ألف رحمة عليه

أعرف اننا تكلمنا عن هذا الموضوع من قبل ...لكن تعليق زهير ذكرني

هل الترتيل من مقام شرقي وبهذه الطريقة أصبح غير مقبول تماماً أم ما مازال يوجد له أثر ؟

is it "not done" (anymore) or does it depend on the church ?

Najib
17-03-2010, 15:07
Very few psalmodists (church cantors) use these expansion of makams in church, my father is definitley one of them!

The difference between that and pure arabic tarab is that my father made sure the music match the meaning whilst Arabic tarab isn't that expressionist!

الفارابي
17-03-2010, 23:39
هل الترتيل من مقام شرقي وبهذه الطريقة أصبح غير مقبول تماماً أم ما مازال يوجد له أثر ؟


لا زال أخي لا زال ، وفي كنائس الروم تحديداً (أورثوذكس وكاثوليك) يروح كل مرتل وملكاته في تفريدات خاصة باللحن الذي يرتل عليه ، وقد تتسرّب الى أذنه ومن ثمّ الى صوته نغمات خارجة عن اللحن الأساسي المعتمد بموجب طقس كنيسته . إلا أنّ هذا العصر لم يترك أذناً من شرِّهِ إلا وشوّهها ، فقلّما تجد مرتلاً كأبي النجيب لم يتنامى الى ترتيله نغم ناشز .
رحم الله أبا النجيب وأسكنه فسيح جناته مع الأبرار والصديقين .. هناك حيث يرتّل لهم نغماً صافياً خالياً من أية مؤثّرات "عصرية" !

شكراً لنجيب على أن خصّنا بهذه القطع النادرة وأن لفت اليها انتباهنا


أخوكم
الفارابي

3amr
18-03-2010, 00:30
My dear Najib,
you haven't told us where this CD can be obtained or more details about it.

أبو علاء
18-03-2010, 12:23
Najib knew already what I think of this small piece. That's why I didn't deem it necessary to state the same opinion that is by the way identical to yours here in public, because, for me it's not at all a question of friendly compliements. This said, I have a question to Najib with regard to his last comment:


The difference between that and pure arabic tarab is that my father made sure the music match the meaning whilst Arabic tarab isn't that expressionist!
I'm totally ignorant as far as church psalmody is concerned. But, what do you mean by this? I know this concept of "making music match the meaning" is a common one is some spheres dealing with quran recitation and I think it was previously discussed in this forum, but nobody has come out with a convincing explanation with a coherent system and compelling arguments and illustration to dispel my skepticism, to say the least, regarding this concept. The fact that this kind of statement comes from you puzzles me.

3amr
18-03-2010, 19:09
Dear Abu Ala',
There have been attempts to formulate some sort of system of associating modes with moods and so on. Needless to say, they don't work because they don't match the practice of the finest representatives of this field.

It seems there is absolutely no set system for matching melody to meaning. What there is however is a sensitivity to the text, whereby the singer would feel the emotions associated with the text he's singing and translate those into his performance. How that takes place is a deeply personal issue for each performer. What such a performer cannot do however, is engage in acrobatics where there it would be awkward or tasteless, or bring the melody to a climax where there is no climax in the text for example. These are simple common sense considerations.

This is like umm kulthum's soft repitition of "hakitlak", or hilmi's "wi yimkin yisadif yom". Expressive devices are clearly employed to bring more power to the performance.

This is of course only one of the elements of tarabic sung performance, and usually a minor one. What I think Najib is saying is that his father emphasized that element above others out of respect for the holy nature of the text. His father's greatness I think lies in his ability to bring that off while maintaining the highest standards of vocal and musical performance.

أبو علاء
18-03-2010, 20:13
Dear Abu Ala',
There have been attempts to formulate some sort of system of associating modes with moods and so on. Needless to say, they don't work because they don't match the practice of the finest representatives of this field.

It seems there is absolutely no set system for matching melody to meaning. What there is however is a sensitivity to the text, whereby the singer would feel the emotions associated with the text he's singing and translate those into his performance. How that takes place is a deeply personal issue for each performer. What such a performer cannot do however, is engage in acrobatics where there it would be awkward or tasteless, or bring the melody to a climax where there is no climax in the text for example. These are simple common sense considerations.
I quote fully. What worried me is that Najib mentioned his "making music match meaning" in a context in which the main topic is the use of certain maqam(s) (rast) in church chant in addition to such dangerous assertion as "Arabic tarab isn't that expressionist".:)

3amr
18-03-2010, 20:35
Rast is one of the most common modes in church chant I think, I wonder if someone may confirm.

I think the novel thing about this performance is the wonderfully tarabic phrasing, which is not the usual sort of chanting.

In any case, Tarab music is expressive, but it usually isn't "expressionist".

Kamal Kassar
19-03-2010, 10:55
Most of the Syriac liturgical chanting is in bayati mode and it is one of the most ancient christian liturgy. does it help ?

luay
19-03-2010, 14:57
Thank you Najib. What a beautiful voice, indeed.

Luay

Najib
21-03-2010, 00:07
Sorry guys I missed your wonderful comments here.

To elaborate what I meant is a combination of notes and choice of makams. So unlike a "mutrib" in the nahdaesque meaning where the importance is on the tasarrufat and the mastership of "sikak maqamiyyeh", he continued what Mitri el Morr started before him of making the maqams, the notes, the gawabat match and emphasize the meanings of the words.

Yes Mohsen I guess there are big similarities with some styles of quran recitations of which both Mitris were never ignorant.

Of course I'm not saying the arabic tarab is void of expressionism, but in my dad's compositions his focus was a lot on the meaning whilst cleverly using his knowlege of maqams.

So for example if the words express heaven you might expect an ascent to gawab, if they express hell you might expect a descent to qarar. If the talk is about suffering, judgement there will be a lot of use of the 6th mode (hicaz - in a heavy and slow manner). If it talks about resurrection and hope, you would expect more majeur or light mineur use.

Kamal (and 3amr) yes the syriac have heavy use of bayat (or let's say a bayat with a special sigah) but this is not the case in byzantine music. In byzantine music like Ottoman music, like arabic music, a lot stem from the rast (the 8th tone). Everyone learns the music starting from that tune and then they learn how to modulate. This is why the singing, in my opinion, is much richer and way less monotonous.

I will upload more soon.

Najib
21-03-2010, 11:37
This is from an epistle reading. It is Rast which is the common mode of reading these epistles but notice all the beautiful colourings like Kerdan (delnishin) and Bayat Nawa.

أبو علاء
21-03-2010, 12:15
Where's the file, Najib?
Bayati colouring, including bayati nawa, was also present in the first sample you uploaded along with suznak, and kirdan - gawab rast, not dilinshin.

Najib
21-03-2010, 13:06
Sorry mate it took ages to upload the file today!

أبو علاء
21-03-2010, 13:44
This is from an epistle reading. It is Rast which is the common mode of reading these epistles but notice all the beautiful colourings like Kerdan (delnishin) and Bayat Nawa.
I beg to differ, Najib, it's not rast that I hear here, but 'agam, and what comes around min 1' 19" is saba as a standard colouring from 'agam. We have various other interesting colouring and variations (a very subtle one ca min 1' 03-04" in higaz if I'm not mistaken - which would give us shawq 'afza), but the predominant mode is definitely 'agam. .

Najib
21-03-2010, 17:01
Mohsen and I carried the conversation about Rast on the phone today!

Yes the Rast in the 1st piece is an arabic rast as we know it and we are familiar with it.

The second is 8th tone (Rast but from a byzantine/ottoman perspective where the high sikah make Rast and Mahur almost ajam to our ears)

الفارابي
22-03-2010, 12:08
Rast in the 1st piece is an arabic rast as we know it and we are familiar with it . The second is 8th tone (Rast but from a byzantine/ottoman perspective where the high sikah make Rast and Mahur almost ajam to our ears)




وقد تتسرّب الى أذنه ومن ثمّ الى صوته نغمات خارجة عن اللحن الأساسي المعتمد بموجب طقس كنيسته .


هذا بالضبط ما قصدناه يا نجيب في الجملة أعلاه ، إلا أنّ أحداً لم يتعرّض له لا من قريب ولا من بعيد ؛ إذ ما للفارابي ولطقوس الكنيسة البيزنطية الشرقية :) ؟


أخوكم
الفارابي

علي ناجي
28-03-2010, 22:01
تسجيلان رائعان. أشكر لك رفعهما يا نجيب.

رحم الله والدك وأسكنه فسيح جناته

أنا أرى ما رآه أبو العلاء في أن ما سمعته في التسجيل الثاني كان أقرب إلى العجم, وانتقاله إلى الصبا دليل على ذلك.

أرجو أن تشرح قولك التالي فأنا لم أفهمه:



The second is 8th tone (Rast but from a byzantine/ottoman perspective where the high sikah make Rast and Mahur almost ajam to our ears)


أظن أنني سمعت جنس نهاوند في التسجيل الثاني في الدقيقة الثالثة وأربع ثوان أيضا.

Najib
28-03-2010, 23:55
اخي علي ما قصدته هو ان هذا الراست هو راست عثماني حيث تكون السيكاه مرتفعه بشكل يقارب العجم وتلوين الصبا مقصود فيه تلوين كردان وليس الصبا الذي تألفه مع العجم عشيران