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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : تلبية لطلب الصّديق عصمت النّمر : جوهرتا أسمهان



أبو علاء
21-01-2006, 00:41
قصيدتا القصبجي والسّنباطي جوهرتان بحقّ من جواهر النّغم العربيّ النّوادر وفريدتان من فرائد الإبداع الفنّيّ الإنسانيّ ولا سيما منهما رائعة القصبجي الّتي لا تقلّ قيمة في نظري عن تلك الرّائعة الأخرى رقّ الحبيب رغم الاختلاف الكلّيّ في في الرّوح والمنحى النّغميّ ؛ قلت إنّهما من فرائد الإبداع الإنسانيّ وأزعم أنّه يحقّ لنا أن نحتفي بفرائدنا هذه مثلما يحتفي الأوروبيّون بسمفونيّاتهم ومنظوماتهم الأوبراليّة ؛ جوهرتان ارتقتا بصوت أسمهان المرقى الّّذي كان بإمكانها إدراكه وربّما تجاوزه لو عاشت فترة أطول ولو أتيح لها الخروج من دائرة شقيقها اللّحنيّة الفقيرة بضيقها وبساطتها بل سطحيّة بنيتها (وليعذرني لؤي) رغم بعض ومضاته مثل ما تقولشي كنّا وكان الّتي يخيّل إليّ أنّه لحّنها وصدى صوت أخته يرنّ في داخله... هاتان الرّائعتان هما أيضا من الفرص الضّائعة عن أمّ كلثوم وأفهم تمام التّفهّم أن لا تغفر الأخيرة للقصبجي أن يخصّ غيرها بلحن مثل هل تيّم البان (ولا أفهم البتّة أن يخصّ المأخذ المذكور إن صحّت قصّته لحن يا طيور).... على أيّ حال الحديث ذو شجون وما أيسر أن تنفتح سبل الكلام بمحضر هاتين الدّرّتين ، ولكن لندع الكلام لموضع آخر أو لوقت آخر ولنترك العبقريّة تتكلّم.


Two of the most outstanding compositions of modern Egyptian music in the first half of the twentieth century, both of them interpreted by 'asmahan - Hal tayyama-l-banu , composed by Muhammad Al-qasabji, and Hadithu 'aynayn, composed by Riyadh As-sunbati

luay
21-01-2006, 03:06
I agree with every single word you wrote Abu A'laa, including your comments about Farid's music. I LOVE Farid, but when I also admit (and have said that many times, including on the past website dedicated to Farid) that I find his music too repetitive, in the sense that most of his songs sound the same, and in that one can easily "predict the next sentence" in his music. However, I still get full of Tarab when I listen to Awwel Hamsa (my most favorite of all of his songs, and one of my all-time favorites).

I also agree with the comment about Om Kulthoum and Qassabji. Ya Toyour is not appropriate for Om Kulthoum's voice and style, whereas Hal Tayyama-l-Banu is. But also Asmahan did a wonderful job with the song (Asmahan's best songs, in my humble opinion, are the ones composed by Qassabji).

It's worth mentioning that the poems themselves are beautiful. Hal Tayyama-l-banu was written by Ahmad Shawqi and Hadeethu Aynayn was written by Ahmad Fathi (the poet of Qessatu-l-Ams and Al-karnak). Ahmad Sahwaqi has his place in the Arabic poetry, but I doubt many know about Ahmad Fathi, but his poetry (from the three poems mentioned here) is so beautiful, expressive, and very descriptive (recall "Wasahabatu Khayalen Raqasat Fee Maa'bady" in Qissatu-l-Ams and "Wadhohoolo-s-shaa'ere el-harebe men holmi-l-wisali" in Hadeethu Aynayn).

Finally, my two cents on the two compositions: as usual, Sunbati's music is "easier" to the ear and has the simple, yet beautiful, qafla in elongating "ya la-a'yanayki.." (which reminds of the "leh ya banafseg" ending of every part of that song). However, Qassabji's music is more complex and more sophisticated, and hence harder to remember or to repeat. I think the most expressive part of it is the way he composed (and the way Asmahan sang) the three words "Telka Qoloobo-t-Tayri"; it's just amazing.

Sorry for the long post.
Luay

أبو علاء
21-01-2006, 09:28
I'm so happy that our points of view coincide especially on Farid's music. Don't you agree with me that when we listen to Ma-tqulshi kunna-w-kan we can easily be confused as though the singer is 'asmahan and not Nazik if it wasn't for the more masculine tone of the latter'? This reminds me of your comment on 'amal Hisin. Nazik's voice is still closer to 'asmahans's, but yet 'asmahan has such a softness and such a warmth in her voice which are unique. Going back to 'um kalthum, people have made so many legends about her esthetic judgement, her infallible taste for poetry and music, but all this was a little bit exaggerated in my view. Despite all her qualities, the diva was most keen on popular success beyond any other consideration be it artisitc or ethical. That's why she drove Rami and Qasabji to get her that Al-khala'a wa-d-dala'a. That's why she had second thoughts about 'ala baladi-l-mahbub . And that's why (always in my view) she disdained such a genius as Qasabji who gave her Ya qalbi and Raqi-l-habib but also who gave her Esh-shakki yihyi-l-gharam, Sikitti wi-d-dam'i tkallim, Yalli jafaki-l-manam and so many other jewels..... It's this way she missed Hal tayyama-l-ban and sang 'is'al ruhak!!

luay
21-01-2006, 17:43
Dear Abu A'laa,
Actually, I've never heard Nazek's song (Farid's composition); if you have it, could you please post it?

As for Om Kulthoum's choice of songs, I see your point, but I have some reservations from your comment about El-Khalaa'a; that was at the very beginning of her career, and she was still "uneducated" musically (this "musical education" became her trademark later). Notice that even in the 60's (the years of lyrics such as Seeret El Hobb, Enta Omri, and Ba'eed A'nnak), when singers starting singing much simpler lyrics, Om Kulthoum sang Araka A'siyya-Dama'e, Al Atlal, Hadeethu-r-Rouh, Aqbala-l-Laylu, Athulatheya-l-muqaddasa. Among all these, Al Atlal's music, in my opinion, was the only one that had "popular sentences". So, these examples in my view show that she still went for classical Arabic, which she liked, and at the same time wasn't "the fashion" in these years.
I see the sarcasm in your Isa'al Rohak example, but you should have chosen El Hobbe Kolloh, instead :-) :-) Don't you think Isa'al Rohak was a better song? I know you don't care for either of the two :-)

As for Nazek, Amal, Asmahan, etc., actually your comment reminds me of another contrast: Om Kulthoum and Fathiya Ahmad; the latter's voice, though very powerful, is deprived of much emotions (I know some might dislike/disagree with my opinion, but again, it's just my opinion).

Thanks again for the lively discussion.
Luay

أبو علاء
21-01-2006, 18:46
Dear friend, I know Is'al ruhak was certainly not the worst one she sang, but I chose it as a song pertaining yes to the decline years, but supposedly created in a period when 'um kalthum must have kept some lucidity. As for El-hubbi kulluh or, even worse than that, Hakam 'alina-l-hawa, sorry, but my sense is she was already dead (I mean the singer of course, not the person) by then

عصمت النمر
22-01-2006, 00:04
[QUOTE=أبو علاء][RIGHT]قصيدتا القصبجي والسّنباطي جوهرتان بحقّ من جواهر النّغم العربيّ النّوادر وفريدتان من فرائد الإبداع الفنّيّ الإنسانيّ ولا سيما منهما رائعة القصبجي الّتي لا تقلّ قيمة في نظري عن تلك الرّائعة الأخرى رقّ الحبيب رغم الاختلاف الكلّيّ في في الرّوح والمنحى النّغميّ ؛ قلت إنّهما من فرائد الإبداع الإنسانيّ وأزعم أنّه يحقّ لنا أن نحتفي بفرائدنا هذه مثلما يحتفي الأوروبيّون بسمفونيّاتهم ومنظوماتهم الأوبراليّة ؛ جوهرتان ارتقتا بصوت أسمهان المرقى الّّذي كان بإمكانها إدراكه وربّما تجاوزه لو عاشت فترة أطول ولو أتيح لها الخروج من دائرة شقيقها اللّحنيّة الفقيرة بضيقها وبساطتها بل سطحيّة بنيتها (وليعذرني لؤي) رغم بعض ومضاته مثل ما تقولشي كنّا وكان الّتي يخيّل إليّ أنّه لحّنها وصدى صوت أخته يرنّ في داخله... هاتان الرّائعتان هما أيضا من الفرص الضّائعة عن أمّ كلثوم وأفهم تمام التّفهّم أن لا تغفر الأخيرة للقصبجي أن يخصّ غيرها بلحن مثل هل تيّم البان (ولا أفهم البتّة أن يخصّ المأخذ المذكور إن صحّت قصّته لحن يا طيور).... على أيّ حال الحديث ذو شجون وما أيسر أن تنفتح سبل الكلام بمحضر هاتين الدّرّتين ، ولكن لندع الكلام لموضع آخر أو لوقت آخر ولنترك العبقريّة تتكلّم.


Two of the most outstanding compositions of modern Egyptian music in the first half of the twentieth century, both of them interpreted by 'asmahan - Hal tayyama-l-banu , composed by Muhammad Al-qasabji, and Hadithu 'aynayn, composed by Riyadh As-sunbati

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يابو علاء ياغالى الشكر لن يكفي
موش عارف اقول ايه والله
من اسباب نفورى من ام كلثوم رغم اننى من دراويشها انها تعاملت مع القصبجى المجدد الاعظم
بجليطة رغم انها تعلم قيمة القصبجى واعتقد ان لحن هل تيم البان احد اسباب تعاملها بهذه الجليطة معه وهل هناك احتكار فى الفن ياعنى ذاتية ونرجسية ام كلثوم وطغيانها وجبروتها
وعشق القصبجى لها كفنانة هرم وليس كأنسانة لها نزواتها وجنونها وغبائها ايضا اذا جاز القول
وارتضى ان يكون عازف عود فى فرقتها وتعاملها معه بطريقة مستفزة كما حكت رتيبة الحفنى وحكت حكاية فى غاية الغرابة ان القصبجى وهو صديق والدها عندما يداعبها وهى طفلة كان يعزف لها على العود باأصابع قدميه مما يعنى انه عالم واستاذ عزف من طراز نادر
اكرر شكرى وربنا يقدرنا على رد جمايلك

أبو علاء
22-01-2006, 00:31
أخي العزيز عصمت، لا جميل بين الأحباب ؛ هذا العمل في اعتباري واجب وفي إحساسي متعة ومصدر سعادة ؛ أمّا عن أمّ كلثوم والقصبجي ؛ فقد كتبنا وقلنا الكثير في هذا الموضوع أنا ولؤي هنا وفي مواضع أخرى ، ولا يسعني أن أضيف إلاّ أنّه قد يتعايش في الشّخص الواحد أكثر من شخصيّة وأنّ واقع الإنسان ليس في كلّ الأحوال مطابقا لواقع الإنسان ؛ وأعتقد أنّ عبقريّا آخر في ميدانه مثل المخرج السّنمائيّ الأمريكيّ التشيكيّ الأصل ميلوس فورمان قد صوّر هذه الحقيقة خير تصوير في فلمه عن موتسارت.

luay
22-01-2006, 01:14
I'd like to second Abu A'laa's opinion (if I understood it correctly). No one knows what really happens, and everytime the subject of Om Kulthoum and Qassabji is raised, the assumption is always that Om Kulthoum is to blame. Why can't it be that Qassabji also has his share of the blame? I'm just asking; I don't know.

Also, Om Kulthoum and Zakariya had their dispute as well for over 10 years, which was also a big loss for all lovers of true tarab songs. And Zakariya wasn't one of the main composers for Asmahan (he composed two or three songs only, if I'm not mistaken).

Again, we will never know the truth, since these people are dead, and listening to what Ms. Hafni or others say is the same like us speculating. One thing might be very helpful is if Mahmoud gives us a chronology of Qassabji's compositions for OK in the 40's: Raqq El Habib in 1941, and the two songs in the Fatima movie; but were there any other songs inbetween? I myself have read about OK giving Sahran to Qassabji and not being satisfied with the outcome, and much later giving him Lessabre Hdoud and also not being satisfied with the outcome. Again, I wish there was a way to verify these stories.

Finally, I agree with you Abu A'laa that the Om Kulthoum we know and love was dead by the time she sang El Hobbe Kolloh.

Best regards,
Luay