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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : Ussak vs Bayati



Najib
27-03-2006, 18:00
This is a typical example that is always used in Turkish music books to explain the difference between the Bayat and Ussak.

In Turkish music Bayati and Ussak share the same notes exactly.

The difference is that Ussak is an ascending makam. Mostly starting on the doukah and going up. Or starting on Neva and going down quickly to doukah.

Bayati is described as an ascending-descending makam. Notice in the attached example that it takes 1’29” to go to the Doukah karar.

From a Turkish perspective most of our Arabic compositions can be grouped under Ussak rather than Bayati.

Thank you Hatim for providing me with the file!

Hattouma
27-03-2006, 18:06
YA sidi you are welcome ..i noticed that the pieces had taqsim and pesrev ""Bayati"" when i usually only see the word ""Ussak"" in the Turkish works !!?

For the users info ..the file above is from Kudsi Erguner's Turkish Ney CD ...

Najib
27-03-2006, 18:23
Sorry I didn't understand your 1st sentence?

Hattouma
27-03-2006, 18:30
ofcourse i made myself comlpletely unclear : )
I mean i see ""Ussak"" more often than ""Bayati"" in the turkish repretoire ,but this might be just because i have seen very small part of it :)

3amr
27-03-2006, 19:10
Is it just me, or does kudsi general take his coma's a bit flatter than some other players.

maybe it's only in bayati, but I've also noticed it in nihavend when there are coma accidentals. I don't think the same would be applicable in rast however (I have yet to hear a turkish rast with comma's so flat).

I don't know about the rest of you, but this makes my arabic ears a bit more comfortable, and actually adds some spice compared to the rather monotone (by comparison) intonation that us arabs are getting used to these days (the "all flats are created equal" rule).

Amr

Najib
28-03-2006, 16:42
Yes you are perfectly right in your observation.

This is because of what I explained earlier. What they call Ussak we call Bayati, and vice versa.

So whilst we categorize most of our folkloric stuff as Bayati, they categorize it as Ussak.

Bayati is more for serious pieces like the pesrev we posted.

I should find more Turkish Bayati pieces if I try hard.

Cheers
Najib

Anton Efendi
25-04-2006, 01:58
Here is what I think is the best Bayati Pesrev I've ever heard. It's Seyfettin Osmanoglu's Pesrev. The score is available at http://www.neyzen.com

A sample of it (the first Hane and Teslim, I think) can be found along with a collection of beautiful Bayati songs (in Real Audio format), on this site:

http://www.turkishmusic.org/index5.html

Scroll down to Bayati Selected Songs. It's the first file (Bayati Pesrev).

I would upload the performance by Cemil Bey with Udi Sevki Bey, but I only have it as an MPEG4 file, and it's a 6.3 MB file. I don't know how to convert it to mp3.

أبو علاء
25-04-2006, 19:57
I've already enabled mp4 files and uploaded your neva kar. So, you can upload the pesrev and anything else you want in mp4 format.

Anton Efendi
25-04-2006, 20:12
Thanks but it still won't let me. The extension is .m4a

It's an MPEG-4 audio file.

أبو علاء
25-04-2006, 22:59
Extension m4a added. Pleas, try again!

Anton Efendi
26-04-2006, 02:46
Let's see if it works.

The score is available at neyzen, in the beyati section. Just look for Pesrev Seyfettin Osmanoglu.

This track is taken from the Cemil Bey cds from Traditional Crossroads. I suspect everyone here has those! Sevki Bey accompanies on ud.

It is a superb piece. Do check out the other site I gave for excellent Beyati sarkilar.

Hattouma
26-04-2006, 23:54
For people who use mp3 players like me :)
the same file in mp3 format

Itunes does it with one touch ofcourse :)
Thanks for the beautiful Pesrev..

Anton Efendi
27-04-2006, 05:26
Could you tell me how to convert files to mp3 on iTunes? Thanks.

I actually just came back from a performance with Phaedon Sinis, Adam Good, and Zev Feltman, and they performed this fantastic pesrev, among many others, including Cemil Bey's wonderul Muhayer Saz semai, Ali Aga's haunting Senaz pesrev, etc. Great evening!

Once you tell me how to convert the file, I'll put up a couple of nice senaz pieces, and a couple of nice hicaz sarkilar.

Hakem
27-04-2006, 15:00
Go to Edit, then preference.
Choose Advanced, then IMPORTING
Choose Import using: choose MP3 Encoder

(if you do this, every song you will import into iTunes will automatically be in MP3 format, which I have done to facilitate sharing)

Then click OK

Then go to the song you want to convert to MP3
Then, go to Advanced
then choose "convert selection to MP3"
Will be done in 1 min!

Najib
27-04-2006, 17:34
By Sultan Mahmud the 1st.

Now notice the immediate reliance on the Dokah (Re in Arabic) when in Ussak mode versus how long it takes to reach the Dokan in the Bayati mode.

this in my opnion one of the main differences of the two makams.

Again, same notes, but totally different dynamics.

Hattouma
01-05-2006, 00:13
Anton ...sorry i was away ..i see Hakem already gave youthe tip ..if the file is already in another form just click it (select it ) Then, go to Advanced
then choose "convert selection to MP3" and you are done ..

Anton Efendi
01-05-2006, 17:09
Thanks guys for the tips.

As for Beyati and Ussak, your observation Najib is of course correct (all one needs to do after all is listen!). But for whatever it's worth, I'll briefly elaborate some more on the seyirs of boths makams.

If you look at the seyir of Ussak, it starts on the Rast, and goes up to Dugah and all the way to Nevah, then back down to Dugah. There's a lot of hovering around the rast-dugah, back up to Nevah. It goes up to Gerdaniye (can also hit Muhayyer), hits the Nym Acem descending, and can stop on Huseyni, then again touches on the Nym Acem descending down to the Rast, then back up to the Cargah (the Cargah is a recurring sound) before closing on the Dugah.

Again, the Meyan Hane of Makam Ussak starts an octave higher on the Gerdaniye and Muhayyer, and hits the upper Tiz notes before descending to Huseyni, touching on the Nym Acem, and descending back down to the Dugah.

A good illustration is the Ussak Pesrev of Tanburi Osman Bey:
http://neyzen.com/images/notalar/ussak/ussak_p_tanburi_osman1.gif

And for an illustration of the Meyan Hane, take a look at the third Hane in the same Pesrev:
http://neyzen.com/images/notalar/ussak/ussak_p_tanburi_osman2.gif

Also, those who read Byzantine music might want to take a look at the attached Kekragaria in the first mode (echos protos), courtesy of Dimitri Koubaroulis. The two versions are by Petros Peloponneseos and Ioannes Protopsaltes respectively. I think those are good description of an equivalent to Ussak in Byzantine.

As for Beyati, as I noted in my remark about Tahir and Beyati, Beyati dervies from the Neva and not from the Dugah like makam Ussak. So the seyir of the Beyati begins from the Nevah or Cargah (though sometimes too from the Dugah).

It goes up to Huseyni, Acem, Gerdaniye, and goes back down to Neva and Nym Beyati. Again it touches the Nym Acem and descends back to Nym Beyati to close on the Dugah.

For more on Beyati, and for examples, see what I wrote here:
http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5743&postcount=20

Najib
01-05-2006, 18:47
for the fantastic explanation.

All what I have as Ottoman makam references are:

- Turk Musikisi Nazariyati ve Usulleri by Ismail Hakki Ozkan (not that I know turkish as a language, but I can read trukish notation easily)

- Karl Signell's Makams book (in pdf format).

- Neyzen website, and turkmusikisi website.

Are there any other reference books/ websites you suggest/recommend?

Also I notice that there is a lot of stuff (bestes etc) that is noted in Byzantine notation which makes it so easy to read/chant. The new Tanburi Isaak En Chordais CD has got some of these scans.

Again, thanks a bunch for everything.

Anton Efendi
05-05-2006, 05:14
I'm glad you found it helpful.

If you read Greek, there are a couple of books that are worth taking a look at.

Panayotes Kiltzanides wrote a book in 1881 called Methodike Didaskalia Ellenikes Mousikes. Thankfully, it has been reprinted by Regopoulos publishing house (Thessaloniki, 1991).

Kiltzanides uses, among others, an 18th c. musical treatise by Kyrillos Marmarinos. That too has been edited and reprinted. The better edition is in Greek:

Theoretical treatise of Kyrillos Marmarenos (17th cent.), edited by Charalambos Karakatsanis (Athens, 2005).

It is also available in English, in a book by Eugenia Popescu-Judetz and Adriana Arabi Sirli called: Sources of 18th Century Music: Panayotes Chalathzoglou and Kyrillos Marmarinos' Comparative Treatises on Secular Music. (Istanbul, 2000).

Popescu has other books on Ottoman music, including a book on Dimitrie Cantemir, all of which could be purchased on Tulumba. Go here to see them:

http://www.tulumba.com/icy_qsrch.asp?ops=s&do=long&x=bottom&tag=&_tag=&s=%22Eugenia+Popescu-Judetz%22

Now, all of these books are comparative Byzantine-Ottoman, so they are more specialized.

There is a book in Arabic written by none other than violinist Sami Efendi al-Shawwa called:
Al-Qawa'id al-Fanniyya fil Mousiqa ash-Sharqiyya wal-Gharbiyya (Gibrail Gabri Publishing House. Egypt, 1946?). I bought it at Rashid Music store in Brooklyn, NY. It's an old left over copy, in fragile condition. It has been helpful cause it explains the seyirs of the most common maqams, as well as their scales and has a short section on rythms, etc.

There are other books in Turkish, but if you, Najib, get Kiltzanides and maybe Shawwa (although there are differences, and Shawwa is explaining through an Egyptian-Levantine filter), then you should get a good foundation. Then you can always look at the bibliography of someone like Popescu and others for more.

Hope this helps.

Najib
05-05-2006, 09:20
and here I am going through my nth order from Tulumba :-)

Anton Efendi
05-05-2006, 14:31
I forgot to include the work of Walter Zev Feldman in English. I've heard Feldman perform, and he is an excellent reference on Ottoman music. He has articles available on the web:

http://fp.arizona.edu/mesassoc/Bulletin/feldman.htm

See also his book:

http://www.vwb-verlag.com/Katalog/m641.html

Najib
05-05-2006, 14:41
It was Feldman who wrote the booklet for the Isaac Tanburi En Chordais CD, and it is one of the best booklets I've seen in years!