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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : fil bo'adi yama



theoudman
04-04-2006, 13:17
I would like to share two renditions of this dawr, one by Saleh Abdel Hai (I might have posted this on zeryab once) and one by Moshe Eliyahu, an unbelievable singer from the Israeli radio that died in the 1990s.

أبو علاء
04-04-2006, 13:29
Thanks, Victor, for Moshe Eliaho's version. He was a nice performer indeed (you have quite a good number of waslahs by the Israeli radio ensemble featuring him with Fayzah Rushdi as solo singers as well as a couple of mawwals by him). Salih 'abdi-l-hay was previously posted in a thread dedicated to samples of his dawrs, here : http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?t=596&highlight=%C3%CF%E6%C7%D1

Hattouma
04-04-2006, 15:22
who is the composer ?

أبو علاء
04-04-2006, 16:06
Muhammad 'uthman.

Najib
04-04-2006, 16:48
ya nour el 3ouyoun anest.

Thanks Victor,

Saleh we bass! (or until Fred bombard us with his new Higazi file - allah yestur) :-)

Hattouma
04-04-2006, 17:03
أه أنا بقيت بخاف ن ملفات الراجل ده
سلامة ده خطير جدا
!! :)
I wonder if is there any label that recorded the music of Moshe Eliyahu or El-Dar ensemble

theoudman
04-04-2006, 17:14
I know most of the recordings I have of Moshe Eliyahu are from the radio. As أبو علاء said, he recorded numerous waslahs, i have a bunch of muwashahat and dawrs recorded by him, really nice stuff.
I dont know of any worthwhile cds of him out there.
Here he is singing aslil gharam.
Enjoy the bombardment :)

Najib
04-04-2006, 17:27
Shadi has posted a mean "Hawwel Ya Ghannam" by him somewhere either here or on Zeryab.

fredlag@noos.fr
04-04-2006, 17:29
Moshe Eliahu has a really nice voice and technique, but the nwiristic ensemble playing with him is unbearable. So much for my hopes Judeo-Arab singers who emigrated to Israel would prove more conservative...

***
But before I hit you with a new Salama recording, I feel it's rather urgent to hit you with the only serious rendition one should consider when debating Fel bo3d yama, that is Shaykh Yusuf al-Manyalawi's.

The state of the record, unfortunately, was very bad when I copied it. Please bear with the khashkhasha; I reckon you will not regret it.
This is the first series of Shaykh Yusuf takes recorded for Gramophone by Fred Gaisberg, Cairo, April 1907.
Gramophone 012212/13/14/15, matrix nb 1131/32/33/34
a decent and clean original record exists as Hayes if Hattouma wants to go forward with his break-in plan. I own an original record and will probably try to have it transfered in Paris by professionals some day I'm rich, but my record is also quite worn out.

theoudman
04-04-2006, 18:44
Moshe Eliahu has a really nice voice and technique, but the nwiristic ensemble playing with him is unbearable. So much for my hopes Judeo-Arab singers who emigrated to Israel would prove more conservative...

The "problem" with the ensembles accompanying Eliyahu is that most of the musicians were great artists in their own right
Abraham Salman on the qanun, Saleh al Kuwaiti or Zuzu Mousa violin, Yaaqob Mourad on the daff, whos going to control these great musicians?

Najib
04-04-2006, 20:19
What is he doing at 3:29, the AAAAAAaaaaaaaaaahhhhh after we muhgiti kadit terou7?

I mean how many times I've heard, and even sang this dawr in the last 20 years.

But I've never ever heard it sung like that.

I mean how many times can someone re-invent the Huzam layali, and here's Yusuf, whack, on the head, with a wonderful layali to begin with, and a wonderful performance of this dawr!

I even like the KhashKhashah of the recording.

It's like water, it's like I'm in the presence of Sheikh Yusuf in the Urabi cafe in Zahleh! AbdelWahab is there but this time he is not in his I-am-with-Shawki happy self. He is eating his heart out because of Yusuf's performance :-)

Ya Habibi Ya Sheikh Yusuf wennabi Kaman!

أبو علاء
04-04-2006, 20:56
I haven't listened to either of these performances yet (I'm on duty this evening) and I fear the worst with this unexpected version by Manyalawi (a few weeks ago, our firiend Zeryab sent to me 30 seconds samples of a few things including this dawr by Manyalawi for identification purpose. But, of course he never provided the full recording. To be fair, he offered to me a couple of nice ones including Manayalawi's El-kamal fi-l-milah sudaf before Najib brings it in through the hakawati series.). As for the Israeli ensemble, the one which performs waslahs of muwashahs is definitely different from the Nwira one. Totally different approach (have you listened to some of their stuff in the muwashahs sticky, Fred? Try it if not and we'll talk it out afterwards.)

Hattouma
04-04-2006, 22:07
would prove more conservative...

***
But before I hit you with a new Salama
The state of the record, unfortunately, was very bad when I copied it. Please bear with the try to have it transfered in Paris by professionals some day I'm rich, but my record is also quite worn out.



في الزحمة كده ؟ 16 دقيقة و نص منيلاوي و اليعد ياما
!
أعمل إيه طيب ! ؟

أما فرقة الدار هي بالتأكيد أحسن بكتير من فرقة نويرة و أمثالها إللى عرفتهم ...لكن لا مقارنة مع القدامي..بالطبع

أبو علاء
06-04-2006, 14:31
It's just now that I've listened to Eliaho's files. Now, I understand Fed's comment about the Nwira like ensemble. Very awkward indeed. A total failure. And those ready made lawazim are simply ridiculous and out of place. This is amazing because when itnerpreting muwashahs their music looks totally different. Well, I guess, even there they are closely controlled by Zaki Srur (their own Nwirah) but such discipline is very subtle and the rendition is much credible. Eliaho's perofrmance, instead, is very decent. He has a nice voice that reminds me of Karim Mahmud and his interpretation is not at all a mimetic one, joyfully inventive especially in the hank of Fi-l-bu'di yama. You won't believe me, but I'm going to listen to Manyalawi now (I've had two successive night shifts).

أبو علاء
06-04-2006, 15:02
آه رهيبة فعلا يا حاتم ؛ ما اقتنعت به من زمان في هذا الفنّ أنّ مجال الإبداع فيه، خلافا لما يسهل اعتقاده، ليس محدودا البتّة ؛ فكثيرا ما يقال (كما قيل في شأن العربيّ القديم) إنّ الأوّلين استنفدوا كلّ إمكاناته ولم يعد من مجال للإضافة، وهو في اعتقادي قول باطل حتما يكفينا دليلا على بطلانه تجربتنا كمستمعين ؛ فأنا أذكر بعد سماعي بضعة أدوار وموشّحات في بداية عهدي بهذا الفنّ كنت كثيرا ما أتساءل ألا أكون قد عرفت كلّ ما يمكن معرفته وأليست تلك الألحان منتهى ما يمكن إبداعه من ذلك الجنس ؟ وكنت كلّما تقدّم بي الزّمن وسمعت المزيد عرفت أنّه بحر وليس بحيرة، ؛ وما يصحّ على إمكانات التّلحين ينسحب على الطّاقات الصّوتيّة وإمكانات الأداء ؛ ولقد اكتشفت خلال الأيّام القليلة الماضية من خلال هذه التّسجيلات الّتي ليس لي بها سابق عهد لزكي مراد وسلامه حجازي وعبد الحي حلمي ويوسف المنيلاوي ما لم أكتشفه طيلة أشهر بل سنوات ؛ وحتّى أداء موشي إلياهو لدور في البعد ياما كنت انوح يدلّ في مستواه على أنّ العرب لم تقل كلّ ما يمكن أن يقال في مجال الغناء الكلاسيكيّ وأنّ في الإمكان غير ما كان.

fredlag@noos.fr
06-04-2006, 16:12
Since I will be away from the forum until the end of the month (at least as far as uploading is concerned), I guess it is quite appropriate to provide you, as a last April present, with all the necessary evidence concerning dor / fel-bo3d yama.

This is
Abd al-Hayy Hilmi : dor huzam / fel-bo3d yama (3 sides)
Odeon 45314 1/2/3

I hope Abu Ala' will like this rendition, probably quite close to Hamuli's intentions, knowing Abd al-Hayy's cult of Si Abduh and his habit of listening to Hamuli's 1899 records on cylinders.

Pay attention to the "elllllll- elllllll-" (8'01-8'03), and the "qalbi qalbi" (8'42-8'49), precisely the type of taqtii3, of breaking the phrases into small pieces of meaning and tiny melodic units, that Abu Ala' hates and that I adore and admire with Hilmi. Since the lyrics are somehow just a bunch of clichés, and since the singer has already repeated the verses many times anyway, Hilmi seems to consider he is allowed to work on the sound material itself (travailler sur la matière sonore), a very modern attitude. Also see in the hank section how he "refuses" the normal hank attitude with the madhhabgeyya, he is not interested in going on with the ana qalbi 3aleik / 3aleik qalbi routine, he forces upon them his own qalbi qalbi qalbi-s, the variations are offered even before the main melodic line has been given. This has to do with the fact that those pieces were very famous and that a routine rendition would have been improper for one of the top 5 singers (Manyalawi/Hilmi/Safti/Sab3/Higazi) of the direct post-hamuli era (1900-1910), and also because of the aesthetics induced by the medium itself, the 78rpm record and its 3 minute tyranny. But even so, this is Hilmi's signature : Hilmi is the most "hamulian" singer of this era, meaning that he advocates for the complete domination of the mutrib upon the lahn, in the lahn / ibda3 dynamics. He is Ibrahim b. al-Mahdi, and Safti or Manyalawi are Ishaq al-Mawsili...

Najib
06-04-2006, 16:20
You forgot the attachment, please try to re-attach.

Thanks
Najib

fredlag@noos.fr
06-04-2006, 16:29
you're too fast, I was unsatisfied by the encoding and sent another file, with better bitrate.

Najib
06-04-2006, 16:32
I'm not fast, I'm hungry :)

أبو علاء
06-04-2006, 17:28
You mean the fast was too long!:) Before, I listen to this recording, Fred, let me make this clarification. I do see your point concerning both Hilmi's sticking to the hamulian principle of the mutrib primacy and his keenness on asserting his artistic talent going it his own way instead of conforming himself to the established pattern/tradition. I don't care much for the modernity of such approach but I do believe this is a fundamental condition of artistic creativity. My point in comparing what I called "an easthetics of continuity" versus "an aesthetics of discontinuity" and my declared preference for the former was rather a subjective appreciation rather than an intellectual parti pris.
It occurs to me that it would be most interesting and most instructive to study the Arab repertory (both the one inherited from the 19th century as well as the more recent one i.e Qasabji, Zakariya, Sunbati, 'um kalthum for instance) from that very point of view (the single word as a basic unit/a point of reference in the melody construction/vocal rendition versus the sentence/verse) so as to determine whether such opposition corresponds to diachronic perspective (an evolution from a type of aesthetic approach/conception towards another) or rather synchronous one (in the sense that both have been there all the time with one or the other taking the lead in different circumstances).
Now to come back to more humanly concerns, since we're not to expect further uploads in the next three-four weeks or so, would it be possible to have Safti's version of this dawr?:)

Najib
06-04-2006, 18:09
Supreme rendition indeed.

Fred, I can see where you’re coming from. I notice that from minute 1,40 (laaaaaken lataf) it’s the first time he pronounces "laken lataf" in the dawr, and he is hitting immediately gawab el Nawa as if he’s saying I’m Abdel Hay Hilmi, and this is my signature, don’t expect a traditional, i.e. boring performance from me.

I loved his higaz Aaanist at 3:38, and then he whisks us into Bayati in the next Anist (3’53’). And then a succession of wonderful creative Anist

What a genius he is in singing makam modulation. Sharrafti ya rouhi 5’33. He’s cleverly jumping between two stools Huzam and Bayati. Yes it only takes to add one note at the bottom to do it, but it’s so difficult to show the characteristic of each makam in the very short rhythmic time that he’s got.

Then the catch-me-if-you-can leylli is unbelievable.

I loved the Rast ticket out of the Saba that the violinist throws in at 8:15. Whoever the violinist is, he’s a genius - most probably Shawwa.

Yes3ed masak ya Frederic.

BTW who is Sab3 you mention Manyalawi/Safti/Hilmi/Sab3/Higazi?

fredlag@noos.fr
06-04-2006, 19:28
@ Abu Ala' : Your are just being very cruel by reminding me that I have neither
Baidaphon 82087/88/89/90, nor Polyphon 43851 1/2 (Safti), nor zonophone 71016 1/2/3 (Muhammad Saalim al-‘Aguz), nor Zonophone Z102562/3/4 (Muhammad Saliim), and have very little chance of ever finding them, unless our friend Zeryab...
What I might have to upload when I'm back from Cairo is another and different Hilmi version...
I am very convinced by your point on continuity vs. discontinuity, which doesn't equal but overlapses with the mutrib vs. composer dynamics. A very good point.
I would love to hear your opinion on this Hilmi version, though.

@ Najib : violonist is either shawwa either ibrahim sahlun ; concerning Muhammad al-Sab3 (1862 or 1873 - 1947), he was supposed to be one of the best singers of the "khedivial" school and was recorded mainly by Gramophone. I have very few recordings of him and what I have is good but clearly not as extraordinary as the other four, I'm afraid he was overrated.

أبو علاء
06-04-2006, 21:55
I've just listened to it once and I started the second listening, Fred and you know what? This is my preferred version of this dawr. I mean I prefer it to Manyalawi's. Would this surprise you? I already liked very much Salih 'abdi-l-hay's one. But, as a matter of fact, he drew heavily on his uncle's interpretation. Najib said already everything about the various little tricks (I was about to write "miracles" then I refrained lest it would appear a bit exaggerated) maybe, except one, so salient in this interpretation. But let me add my voice in appreciating the shift to bayati (minute 3' 54") and then that marvellous pendulum movement between bayati and huzam that follows on a short while later (actually it's not huzam, it's sikah on a different scale. Help, gentelemen! What is it? A sort of 'iraq?). Meanwhile, he dwells ninety seconds on bayati. In fact, I was much pleased with those long "stays" in the same mode (from this point of view, we could consider the dawr here is made of four movements of more or less equal size: huzam, bayati, saba and rast nawa. But, what struck me most is that strange saba part that runs from min. 6' O9" up to min. 8' 15" or so, I think. It is strange because I feel it's not standard saba (you'll tell me which base tone is that. Unfortunately, I lack the adequate tools to produce a fully reliable and knowledgeable analysis.). During those two long minutes if not during three to four minutes if we consider the last part of the previous section with that dwindling movement between bayati and sikah something, you've got the impression that he delves in a sort of perilous progression. It's as though he's walking a tight rope. He's all the time on the brink of nashaz. This is indeed a daring demonstration of his craftsmanship and, I think, that's how he best says, as you put it: Look here! This is me, Hilmi and nobody else. As for the last section from min. 8' 15" onward, this is not news for me since Salih 'abdi-l-hay made an identical copy of it in his own interpretation.

أبو علاء
06-04-2006, 22:03
I forgot one thing, Fred, concerning all those recordings you wish you had. I will say just let us count our blessings! And they are far from being little. Well, this is, at least, my own feeling. You know, I couldn't have dreamt of a better course for this forum. While I felt badly the need for good recordings, I was aware that whatever the number and quality of musical files we would get hold of, if it doesn't give way to a meaningful debate and relfection on the various subjects relating to this heritage and on the value and implications of such material, it wouldn't be worth it. And now, with you among us, we have both things. So, I can't ask for more.

Najib
06-04-2006, 23:33
They say this voice is one in a million, well your ears are one in a million, and of course they hold a fantastic brain between them.

Yes of course you are right, I didn't really mean huzzam the makam, and I meant the sikah trichord it self (a sub-constituant of huzzam the makam).

And my God you're right that Sabah stuff is sabah and not sabah at the same time. It's going to be my homework to find out exactly what the heck it is.

By the way, is the beginning sikah on mi or sikah on si (as in raht el arwah). The douzan is a bit confusing.

Oh, and I like the Manyalwai version better. This is one is gorgeous, but I think Manyalawi's is definitive!

Bassio
20-12-2007, 21:03
Sorry for resurrecting this ancient thread .. but I can not keep silent anymore.

After apologizing to the Manyalawi team (headed by Fred and Najib here) .. I will have to say that I will go with Hilmi here (so it is abu-alaa and me there :D).

His shorter version is more concise and I will have to say is superior to Manyalawi's. His modulations are spot-on.

I will try to comment in detail later + I still have many questions (mostly regarding modulations) left for you guys in this particular recording, so expect me soon.

(On another thought: not to misjudge manyalawi again, I will relisten again to his rendition - he is my favorite artist after all)

Now I need el-Safti .. do we have it? I did not find it in the index. :confused: :(

I have to go now .. see you later.

Bassio
21-12-2007, 14:29
hmm I returned after reading your above conversations more accurately .. so there is no Safti :(

So here I go:
1) Najib says "he is hitting immediately gawab el Nawa" in 1,40. What does this mean?

2) Thanks to abu-alaa for his scheme of maqamic modulations for the dor .. it made me find my way .. but I want to ask:
when is the first hint of modulation to bayati? I hear it at "anest" at 3:54.

3) The sharaft ya rohi (3:54) is it still on bayati?

4) The section (6:20-) is the most poignant section of Arabic music I have heard to date .. it is very strange. I went about trying to figure out which maqam and I thought it was saba .. and YES abu-alaa confirmed me :) .. I am very proud of myself :p

I agree with Najib and abu-alaa. It is not the same as other saba I heard. The difference is that it is most poignant to any other saba I heard. So why is it like that?

I will suggest that the cause may be the progression itself. The shift from the bayati in the previous section to the saba in that section may cause such a thing?! The cause may be inherent in the section itself, I may never know.

This section can not be found in Manyalawi's version.

5) I want to know when is the first modulation to saba heard .. the exact time. Sorry if I repeat this question (but in western music you can pinpoint the modulation at a very specific note) and I don't know if it is the same in Arabic .. because in western music the practice of frolicking to-and-fro between two maqams as a transition can not be found to my knowledge.
The fact is that I hear it first at the "ahhh" at 6:20 .. but the area 6:00 - 6:20 is very shady for me. Is this a transition or did he modulate already khalas?

6) "ah ya leil" 6:50 I have never been glad that it reached the end of the side as here.

7) "el el" 8-8:05 is he still on saba?? (and yes I notice the 'disconnection' trick)

8) What is the modulation at 8:14? From saba to .. ?? Or is it at another spot?
Again it appears to me here that the "violinist!!" made the modulation. This made me wonder if he agrees with the singer beforehand .. or does he do it on the spot and the singer has to comply?

9) My observation that Hilmi يبدع in most Odeon recordings. Another thing that I don't know if you guys noticed that the instrumentalists on Odeon are super, not like any others. Did anyone else notice that? Where they known (by names)?

10) After hearing Manyalawi again, it is a very powerful version, but I will still go with Hilmi. Maybe Manyalawi is too long and it takes time for me to fully comprehend what the hell is he doing, but for now I will keep with Hilmi's version. It is the most "architectural" if I can describe .. and you can surely blame my 'western' ears for that :)

ovide
22-12-2007, 12:47
@ Nacib bacha

أبعاد الصبا هنا محيرة، هل تشبه في رأيك أبعاد السيكاه البلدي؟

3amr
22-12-2007, 13:45
6:06 is clearly NOT saba.

This is Ramal (or Mukhalif), which means it is to siga what saba is to bayati.

Ramal was discussed at length in the Safti Biftikarak Eh Yifidak thread.

I've also took the liberty of uploading a short clip showing Ramal as clearly as can ever be shown.

ovide
22-12-2007, 14:39
thank you Amr

but i disagree with you

estikrar hilmi and the bande is not on the sika but on the dukah note!
it iss true how ever that hilmi does do this estikrar very few times in this section prefering leting things hanging on the gerkah higaz notes but wheh he does it it is on dukah

for exemple 6,14 and 17 and 20
and 6,35 and 47-48
7,21
7,32
the inner estikrar from 7,56

and finaly the clerarer estikrar 8,12-13

note that he always begins his ascending phrase from dukah

the bande do it more clearly round 6,54 to 7,06
beside the moving to rast is also very difficult to do from a moukhalef and a sikah note!

i think what you are saying is partialy true
the trick of hilmi is to play it between saba and moukhalef
like he can do also between bayati and sikah

what a wonderful singer

but though, i believe that the distance between notes are also weird
i will have to accord my oud on his douzan to see more cleraly
menawhile just an hypothesis of a higher hijaz note, like in the turkish saba
what do you think?

Bassio
22-12-2007, 14:46
But what about 6:20 afterwards? saba??

And what is Ramal .. I can not find this maqam anywhere in the site maqamworld?

Are you using a different terminology 3amr?

3amr
22-12-2007, 14:48
@ovide: I'll have to come back to you on this.

@Bassio: no, not different terminology, but Ramal is very rare, you won't find anything about it on the internet.

ovide
22-12-2007, 14:52
thanks 3amr
and also please tell me what do you think of this weird bayati round 4,00
and especially what does he do on
4,34?
he does not hit a correct hussayni note, does he?

Bassio
22-12-2007, 14:53
Ramal rare? can not be found on the internet?? :p
I have to say that I am amazed by the amount of knowledge you all have.

Please please guys help a beginner here

Not to intrude on your advanced conversation, but I really need answers .. at least for the very tiny part left of my diminishing ego :D


EDIT: It seems we three are posting at the same time, and it won't be long before Najib or Fred join .. I will take a break here for a while, so the conversation becomes more .. meaningful

fredlag@noos.fr
22-12-2007, 15:35
@ Bassio :
ramal is currently used, but not currently described. See also here, on the forum, some ramal discussion and examples.

http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showpost.php?p=21259&postcount=8

ovide
22-12-2007, 15:38
of course we are supposing a saba placed on dukah
but in fact it is false
it was just in order to be easy to understand
Actually, the huzam is on FA, so the whole duzan is very high
saba should be theorically considered here on Nawa, so indication must be transposed
ramal will be supposedly in LA half bemol (in fact, it will be a "si bemol", in western terms)

with the oud
I estimate that bayati at 4:00 is a very correct bayati
with the third note (supposedly the 3ajam) is exact and the second (la half bemol supposaty) is quite high, which is not standard with musicians of Cairo.
Around 4:34, there is a tricky thing, because Abd al-Hayy does not hit an exact Re gawab (supposedly) but a little bit under it, but not a half bemol either, more like 2 commas (thanks Fred).
but on the qaflah, he makes it clear that he, now, is hitting the Re Gawab exactly, and that makes a beautiful effect, intentionally I believe

the saba thing is, in my sense, not only because of the mixing with ramal (= mukhalif)
but also because of a very high si (supposedly)
with a correct ajam before it, while the tendance is that the si (4th note in saba on nawa) will be attracted to the note under it!
it ressembles Turkish use, with some differences of course.

well it is just an estimation
what do the others think?

Bassio
22-12-2007, 23:01
Thanks Fred, I checked out the Ramal part and I can hear it. But no way I can identify it alone later.

However, my main interest are in the things that you all take for granted. I am still struggling on where is the saba and when did he modulate, and what is this trick called type of questions?

Anyone can help poor Bassio by answering some of the questions I posted in my first post. ;)

ovide
23-12-2007, 00:39
@ Bassio

1) Najib says "he is hitting immediately gawab el Nawa" in 1,40. What does this mean?

that means that Hilmi begins his phrase by the note of gawab el Nawa, that means a Sol octave higher than Nawa (sol), without preparing an ascending phrase, ans in the begining of the dawr, that is powerfull and not vcommun
in fact we are talking about Nawa because of arabic modulations terms, but in fact he hits an La half Bemol because the hole douzan is high

2) Thanks to abu-alaa for his scheme of maqamic modulations for the dor .. it made me find my way .. but I want to ask:
when is the first hint of modulation to bayati? I hear it at "anest" at 3:54.

the second anest


4) The section (6:20-) is the most poignant section of Arabic music I have heard to date .. it

I will suggest that the cause may be the progression itself. The shift from the bayati in the previous section to the saba in that section may cause such a thing?! The cause may be inherent in the section itself, I may never know.


No
the bayati - saba shift is very commun
what is special here, in my sens, is that hilmi mixed Saba and Moukhalef (or Ramal),
in fact he hang our judgment on the maqam used by playing on the common specific notes to those two
and by letting very few and short estikrar only happen
also the forth note of the saba is high



8) What is the modulation at 8:14? From saba to .. ?? Or is it at another spot?
Again it appears to me here that the "violinist!!" made the modulation. This made me wonder if he agrees with the singer beforehand ..


To Rast
and i suppose it was agread with the violinist before recording

kabh01
23-12-2007, 07:43
Sorry for being a parasite to this exchange. However I had heard before something called "Nawbet al ramal" (surely nothing to do with a kidney disease), which I believe is a derivative of Hijaz. Also, there is "ramal al mayya" (nothing to do with rivers and seas surely), which is a kind of Bayati Mo7ayyar.(بياتي محير)

Now then what was our uncle Hilmi doing there?

ومنكم نستفيد

أبو علاء
23-12-2007, 10:48
هلال، لا علاقة لحوار الإخوان هنا بالرّمل ورمل المايه اللّذين ذكرتهما وذكرت نوبتيهما وهما مقامان تونسيّان مختلفان عن الرّمل/المخالف، والحقيقة أنّي غير عليم بالمقامات التّونسيّة إلاّ أنّي أعتقد أنّ فيهما شيئا ممّا ذكرت كما أعتقد أنّهما شائعان في عموم منطقة المالوف المنحدر بشكل أو بآخر من الموسيقى الأندلسيّة (الجزائر، ليبيا...) ولست أدري إن كانت هناك اختلافات بين الرّمل أو رمل المايه في تونس ونظيريهما في الجزائر أو ليبيا.

kabh01
23-12-2007, 12:19
شكرا للتوضيح محسن وعذرا للتطفل يا شباب

Bassio
23-12-2007, 15:09
@ovide

Thank you ovide. You've made my day. :)

@kabh01

Uncle Hilmi .. !!

lol :D

And in turn, I enthusiastically recommend "Uncle Hilmi's" version to anyone who has not heard it yet. :D

Bassio
25-12-2007, 13:16
ٍSo 3amr:

In your sample, is the whole passage Ramal .. or is it the deviated note played in the 10th second that pierced my ear?

3amr
25-12-2007, 14:40
No, it's all ramal excluding the first three seconds (fihi stafa).

What struck your ear at minute ten is the sheikh playing around a bit (I don't quite know how to classify it, maybe just an ornament).

Please compare the sample intently with the section just after the sixth minute (around 6:08).

Bassio
31-12-2007, 13:43
I have just read in a book in the library that there are
other 2 versions of this dor by Manyalawi on sama3 el mlook
one version on 2 sides
and another version on 3

I also read there is an unreleased بروفة
by Abulila on 4 sides with no numbers

Anyone can confirm? Do these exist?

fredlag@noos.fr
31-12-2007, 14:50
@ Bassio
You are referring to the fihris made by Dar el-Kotob, based on the Dar el kotob collection.
Your got it right concerning the Sama3 el-Muluk version of Manyalawi, but there's only one version, not 2, and it's a 3 sides one.
As for Abu al-Ila's recording of Fel-Bo3d, it is supposedly a "prova", a test record, and the matrix nb makes it quite possible.
But there are 2 problems :
- recording from dar el-kotob is very difficult, it takes sabr ayyub. Dr Muhammad al-Baz recorded a bit from there, Manyalawi's "Ye3ish we ye3shaq qalbi" that is on the forum, the Sama3 el-Muluk, is a Dar el-Kotob recording, for instance. As you will hear, the quality is terrible because of the lack of proper equipment. But I'm working on it :-)
- The list in the Dar el-Kotob is the list of what they had when they made it. Due to terrible conditions of conservation and utter ignorance mixed with baga7a mixed with ghalasa mixed with talama mixed with rakhama mixed with tasayyub of employees of dar el-kotob, each time they break a record (and that's very often), they simply throw it in a big heap of broken records, that is now reaching a height close to the middle pyramid. So there's no guaranty that this alledged recording of Fel bo3d by Abu al-Ila, if it was indeed what it is advertised to be (since provas do not have printed labels but just hand written ones, and it can be wrong, and they NEVER listened to a single record when they made the fihris) is still there in one piece.

3amr
31-12-2007, 15:54
Fred, you just broke my heart here...

Seriously, sometimes I feel like doing ..... and ......... and some ...***... to the people in charge of our cultural heritage (along with a large number of political figures).

Bassio
01-01-2008, 00:08
Very depressing indeed! How much ignorance can we tolerate further?!
I hope they save as much as they can.


But I'm working on it :-)

This sentence has some suspense revolving around it. I like that. ;)

Bassio
01-01-2008, 14:17
On another note, the book also mentioned a Manyalawi 4 sided Beftekarak eh yfeedak!!

Mistake or not Fred?

Mentioning a thing like that may endanger lives you know ;)

أبو علاء
07-05-2008, 19:37
تذكّرت ونحن في هذا السّبات الطّويل أنّ أبا الفداء كان قد دعانا خلال حوارنا بشأن دور من قبل ما اهوى الجمال بصوت المنيلاوي إلى مراجعة هذا الموضوع وصيغة عبد الحي حلمي لفي البعد ياما كنت انوح وقسم الصّبا ضمنها بالذّات، وقد وعدته أن أفعل فشئت أن أفي بالوعد وعاودت الاستماع والقراءة، إلاّ أنّي لم أصل إلى رأي قاطع في الأمر.
ما هو مؤكّد أنّنا جميعا تنبّهنا إلى غرابة هذا القسم وما فيه من مدعاة للحيرة، وهو ما بادرت إلى الإعراب عنه منذ أوّل تعليق لي على الدّور كما هو واضح من خلال الأسطر التّالية :


But let me add my voice in appreciating the shift to bayati (minute 3' 54") and then that marvellous pendulum movement between bayati and huzam that follows on a short while later (actually it's not huzam, it's sikah on a different scale. Help, gentelemen! What is it? A sort of 'iraq?).
(...)
But, what struck me most is that strange saba part that runs from min. 6' O9" up to min. 8' 15" or so, I think. It is strange because I feel it's not standard saba (you'll tell me which base tone is that. Unfortunately, I lack the adequate tools to produce a fully reliable and knowledgeable analysis.). During those two long minutes if not during three to four minutes if we consider the last part of the previous section with that dwindling movement between bayati and sikah something, you've got the impression that he delves in a sort of perilous progression. It's as though he's walking a tight rope. He's all the time on the brink of nashaz ..

إلاّ أنّي لا أزال عاجزا عن حسم الأمر لاسيما أنّي غير قادر على تبيّن درجات الرّكوز والعوارض بوضوح، والأمر الوحيد المؤكّد عندي هو أنّ تلوين السّيكاه السّابق للصّبا (والمذكور ضمن الاقتباس أعلاه) لا يركز على درجة الهزام المعتادة وأنّ ركوز الصّبا الّذي يليه مرتبط بركوزه ؛ وقد وجدت عمروا يصرّ على اعتباره رملا لا صبا، ولئن كنت لا أريد الجزم بخطئه فإنّي أتساءل ألم نعتد في الغناء المصريّ أن يكون الرّمل مجرّد تلوين معترض على مقطع أو جملة من السّيكاه (خلافا للحال في التّقليد العراقيّ حسبما فهمت حيث يمثّل الرّمل/المخالف مقاما مستقلاّ قائما بذاته توضع منه الألحان بل والوصلات) ؟ والحال أنّه هنا أكثر من مجرّد تلوين معترض، فهل يكون ذلك قرينة على كونه ليس رملا أم يكون عبد الحي حلمي هو من خرج على العرف وجعل الفرع أصلا ؟...
أنّى يكن الأمر فإنّ هذه النّقطة تقتضي المزيد من النّظر والتّمحيص ممّن يملكون أدوات التّحليل.

Bassio
07-09-2008, 05:32
To change the subject from the often talked-about legendary version of Hilmi, we want to talk about the equally-satisfying version of Manyalawi (although less in mythical value in some sort of way) which is also very well-crafted.

Strangely enough, like the violinist who modulated to rast in Hilmi's version, I can hear here a clear introduction of the nahawand at 5:27 by the qanunji's descending sweep.
كل شىء مدروس ! :)

I told you he is a composer :D

Manyalawi also apparently ends the nahawand with his famous shift to rast at 8:35 (he executed this move in many of his dors I heard, very conventional .. making you appreciate the more novel ways of Hilmi).

And he apparently continues Rast for the rest of the next section
(confirmation needed)
(Again I want to repeat my question: is the alby 3aleik section in rast? or gaharkah?)

12:12 notice how he makes a sudden move of closure (because the side approached the end) and the funniest moment is the obvious mess of the instrumentalists who obviously didn't see that one coming and the 12:12 --> 12:21 becomes a very funny salad of sounds

13:46 the shift to bayyati

Can anyone analyse the last minute please?

By the way, can anyone remember the Abdel-Halim parody? Did he sing it in bayyati or in saba? I cannot recall and I don't have the recording.

أبو علاء
09-09-2008, 11:34
Manyalawi also apparently ends the nahawand with his famous shift to rast at 8:35 (he executed this move in many of his dors I heard, very conventional .. making you appreciate the more novel ways of Hilmi).

And he apparently continues Rast for the rest of the next section
(confirmation needed)
.[/Again I want to repeat my question: is the alby 3aleik section in rast? or gaharkah?)
(...)
Can anyone analyse the last minute please

By the way, can anyone remember the Abdel-Halim parody? Did he sing it in bayyati or in saba? I cannot recall and I don't have the recording
Fred promised to answer you, but, it couldn't find the time for this and for a couple of other things. So, let me give it a try.
The shift from nahawand to rast is indeed a very conventional one (just think of kadni-l-hawa for instance) or, at least, has it become so. This said, the even more orthodox shift when you are in nahawand is to move to bayati, not to rast.
From min 8' 36" on to min 13' 44", what you have is mostly rast with two quite simlar sikah interludes in min 10' 08" and 12' 07", which answers your next question concerning the first part of the hank ('ana qalbi 'alik). As far as I can guess, rast here is on gaharkah (fa), but it is still rast. The second part of the hank after min 13' 44" is in bayati. Have you noticed what he does in min 14' 41"? It would be wrong to depreciate Manyalawi's art in favours of Hilmi's. Both are grand masters, but with different esthetic approaches.
What happens in "the last minute" is simple. Manyalawi reverts back to huzam, the baic maqam of the dawr.
Abdelhalim's parody of the hank is in saba.

Bassio
09-09-2008, 21:53
Thank you for your answers abu-alaa.
I will continue the discussion and elaborate later, maybe late tonight perhaps.

And of course we are waiting for Fred and others to comment on Manyalawi's great version.

Bassio
11-09-2008, 03:30
About the sika interludes .. I would never have detected those, I am still completely ignorant when it comes to sika.

Still it is very difficult for me to diagnose transient colorings which are very short opposed to sections in which I am aided by the instrumental interludes ;)
Like the one you explained in Sallemt if you recall.
I can hear them but cannot diagnose.

So I beg you to tell me exactly what he does in 14' 41", please. :)


It would be wrong to depreciate Manyalawi's art in favours of Hilmi's. Both are grand masters, but with different esthetic approaches.

I never depreciated Manyalawi; in fact I listen to Manyalawi more often than I listen to Hilmi.

The presence of such too great yet different contemporaries is amazing and represents a 'tarabic' overdose.

But I doubt that any one else competes with them (even abulila or Higazi, but they have fewer recordings).

But I still hold my opinion that Hilmi's version is more mythical, although I enjoy listening to both.


Abdelhalim's parody of the hank is in saba.

Bingo. It's uplifting when you get it right. ;)

I hope Fred arrives soon to defend the Manyalawi version. :)

fredlag@noos.fr
11-09-2008, 07:31
Sure will, this week end. Sorry for the late answers these days.

أبو علاء
11-09-2008, 08:26
So I beg you to tell me exactly what he does in 14' 41", please. :)

He goes down the whole scale of bayati.

ovide
13-03-2009, 00:49
بعد الشرح الممتع الذي قدمه الأستاذ تيسير حول الصبا، في موضوع آخر، لعله يفتينا برأيه في شأن قسم الصبا (أو المخالف) الذي يحيرنا هاهنا،

كما أن مصطفى باشا مطلوب دائماً إلى المشاركة متى سمحت له ظروفه