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مشاهدة جميع الاصدارات : Salama Higazi as a singer of adwar (episode III)



fredlag@noos.fr
05-04-2006, 12:32
This is, as far as I'm concerned, one the greatest intepretations of a dor ever sung. It was part of my training as a would-be khedivial singer with Nidaa Abou Mrad. I massacred it dozens of times, until we both agreed my scene name should be Farid effendi Nashazkar...
===============================
Odeon 55504 1/2/3/4
dor bayyati / qaddo l-mayyas zawwed wagdi
(Muhammad al-Darwish / Muhammad ‘Uthman)
circa 1908-1910

This is a very rythmical rendition, in which I suspect both the inner genius of takht Odeon and its crazed raqqaq, and Higazi's policy of including the rythmic patterns of popular inshad/zikr in a learned repertoire piece play a huge role. This version is totally different from Abdel Hayy's Hilmi understanding of this piece, as well as Muhammad Nagib's in the 1932 Congress. The most amazing part is side 4, in which the madhhabgeyya sing an ostinato while the shaykh imposes his own extermporization, i.e. not a usual "hank" in which the lead singer "answers" the takht but two different melodic discourses at the same time, producing a vocal heterophonic effect (that al-marhum Abdel Aziz Anany improperly analyzed as "harmony").
As for the unexpected final transition from gaharkah (of bayyati) > higaz (of bayyati shuri) before the expert qafla, it is magnificent. Conclusive layali, though very short, still haunt me since the very first day I heard them.

Najib
05-04-2006, 12:40
Downloading, and will listen soon.

Now you (and Abu 3ala) are going to be very disappointed with me, because I've never heard it at all before even sung by someone else.

So is there any chance someone can upload another version of the Dawr.

This way Frederic's wonderful explanation about comparing wouldn't be wasted.

Thanks
Najib

أبو علاء
05-04-2006, 12:50
Before listening and while downloading, let me react to this comment of yours Najib. The most obvious answer to your question is to have Fred upload the 'abdi-l-hay Hilmi version. More seriously (well, I was serious there too), the only version I've known of this dawr a relatively recent one (from the fifties, I guess) by a female singer (I don't remember whether it was Badi'ah Sadiq or 'a'ishah Hasan), but the radio recording was in such a bad shape I never dared upload it nor did I manage to grasp all the details of the composition.

fredlag@noos.fr
05-04-2006, 13:41
Amrak ya sidi, gi'ta bil amr al-muta3...

Abd al-Hayy effendi Hilmi
dor bayyati / qaddo l-mayyas zawwed wagdi
Odeon 45878 1/2
Transfered at Cairo's Maktabat al-Fann, Dar al-Kotob, from the National Collection, with totally unadequate equipment, thus the very low technical quality of this document. Hilmi's version is artistically very impressive as well, although completely different from Higazi's. And the dor is one of Uthman's masterpieces. Only Muhammad Negib (qabbaha allah waghahu) managed to sing it really really badly.

أبو علاء
05-04-2006, 14:03
Dear Fred, be sure I'would promptly fulfill any instruction/order/wish you would direct to me as far as it is within my humble human reach (and sorry for this awkward English in which I would never have written if it wasn't for the nature of this forum membership, but everybody knows by now that English is neither my first nor my second language as well as they know I'm musically illiterate). As for Naguib's version, it's not at all by chance that I didn't ask for it. Well, in other circumstances I could have asked. But, what for when you have both Higazi and Hilmi versions? I'll come back later.

Najib
05-04-2006, 15:07
To borrow from my friend Mahmoud Zibawi, sheikh Sallamah is "Khurafy"

Thanks ya sydna, and we'll get back to the two postings later.

Najib
05-04-2006, 16:15
Dear Frederic,

I don’t know if you’ve been to La Rochelle before, and if you have visited an ice cream shop there called Chez Ernest. The ice cream there is so delicious (one of the flavours is Tarte Tatin for example) that when he asks me to choose two scoops I get into one hell of a confusion :p

This is exactly the feeling when I listen to these two performances! Even the Kanuns with the lawazims are both gorgeous.

I notice both of them excelling in singing “Aslo Qalbi”

So the question here is, did Higazi do the heterephony part (starts from 10’09 I think) of his own improvisation of the moment, or was that planned, and maybe even it was him introducing elements from the opera exposure that existed at the time?

Also due to your posting, if anyone mentions Qaddokal Mayyas I'll forget about Sabah Fakhri forever, and I'll think about Higazi and Hilmi :-)

Thanks for both gems.

أبو علاء
05-04-2006, 17:29
Najib, I think Frédéric is right (I'm afraid he always is:) ) in making a net distinction between Hijazi's and Hilmi's performance here. I mean Hilmi is ok, but he's back here to his favourite style in singing dawr and I must admit such style doesn't appeal much to me. Hilmi's standard esthetics is one of discontinuity based on the single word, sometimes even on a syllable. He used to "tear" the dawr in (very) small pieces and that disturbs me. In fact, one of the main reasons for which I was quite impressed and pleased by his intepretation of 'ahdi-l-'ukhuwwah and, most of all, of Allah yisun dawlit husnak was precisely the fact that he seemed to depart from that established style of his (it's a pity that I didn't succeed much in conveying that idea of mine there). Opposed to this is an esthetics of continuity as examplified here in Hijazi's rendition of this dawr as well as in 'ali Al-harith interpertation of 'adhi-l-'ukhuwwah. This probably has to do with a sort of tragic exthetics as opposed to a "dramatic" one and I think the heterophony you're talking about is to be linked to the latter (I remember writing something in the same sense at the level of musical composition when commenting on 'ahidti qalbi, if I'm not mistaken. To go back to Hijazi's talent and extraordinary vocal techniques. I found his jara dam'i جرىىىىىى دممممعي in min. 3' 22 simply overwhelming. The "twinning" of jawab and qarar in hubbak da-mnin min. 5' 34 and onward (is this contrepoint in French?), initiates a sort of dialogue preluding to that heterophony you mentioned. In fact, there seems there's no hank at all here, but rather a "one man show" of the mutrib with several voices. The dialogue here is shifted from the usual dialectic mutrib/madhhabjiyah who are simply kept on the fringe of Salama's performance to be placed inside the latter's interpretation (note the unsually low profile they've got to keep here).

Najib
05-04-2006, 18:40
There is no question that Higazi's version is also Frederic's favourite.

My problem is that I'm still having my diapers changed when it comes to adwars :-)

You are a long long way ahead, but I will work on catching up with you!

fredlag@noos.fr
05-04-2006, 19:57
I do prefer Higazi's "dancing" version, but I find Abu Ala' is a little harsh on Hilmi : an average Hilmi is often a *** at his best (fill *** with whoever you want). The beauty of the voice is enough.

But in this dor, Hilmi is doing very interesting things in the 4:27 > 5:09 section, although singing on merely *three notes*, before concluding by aaaaaaaaaaaaah, as if he had enough of this whimsical phrase. Very clever, I feel. Very Hilmian.

Hattouma
05-04-2006, 23:03
يسري الدور مع سلامة سريان مجرى النيل (قبل السد طبعا) و الجزء الأخير مع المذهبجيةبه أحد هذه اللحظات التي أعشقها من عدم التوقع ...أي حاجة ممكن تحصل ...(حتّى الهارموني في خيال العناني ...هو الهارموني ده معقد العرب ليه ؟:) ...)حي جدا ...الموسيقى حية جداً سلامة حساس و حي جداً ..القانون والإيقاعات ...المزيكا دي فعلاً من حوالي 100 سنة ؟؟؟؟!!! و ممكن تكون ألعاب النهاية من الأوبرا وقتها بس أنا سامع فيها حلقة ذكر أنا تخيلتهم و هما بيغنوا الأدوار في الموالد...
:)

. أما عبد الحي ...ماسمعتش الدور ده لسه لكن هو ""مزاجي"" جداً
قصدي
Moody
جداً ...و لا يخلوا أداؤه أحيانا من قرف أحياناً .... .أنا متخيل شخصية الراجل ده ..ده مش سهل يتسجله ...(لا يتقيد بوقت أو ظروف تسجيل ..مثلما لا يحب التقيد بإيقاع! ) و على فكرة حاسس إن صالح متأثر بيه لكن لم يكن عنده رفاهية أن يسمح لمزاجه يتحكم 100 % .......ه
أما عبد الحي حلمي مرفه قوي
:)

نجيب لما إنت نونو في الدور ..أنا أعمل إيه ؟ أقوم ألم شنطي و أروح بلدي أدور على ماما
!

Najib
05-04-2006, 23:46
We can all sing "Ana Lissah Nounou we fel Houbbi ..."

Najib
06-04-2006, 00:02
Frederic, did you think that there was a "borrowing" from the opera? or am I fantacising?

fredlag@noos.fr
06-04-2006, 00:27
Well, one can only give his opinion, these are mere ideas...
I'm more with the "zikr" hypothesis, anyone who's been in a muled in Egypt would see what I mean, the zikkira, the tafqir, the allah hayy-s, the munshid carried away. But Salama, before singing on a takht, was a "learned" munshid, not a popular one, more like a shaykh Naqshabandi, or in present times a Helbawy than, say, a shaykh Yasin al-Tuhami. I think he deliberatley incorporated some of this "azkar sha3beyya" spirit in his renditions, a tribute to popular music in art music.
But the opera hypothesis certainly has to be considered. Some of his pieces had such ambitions (the awful and ridiculous lahn el hayat, lahn el mawt and such in "3izat al-Muluk", his worse record), the main bulk of his theater work was mainly the adaptation of inshad and muwashshahat to the scene, and he was harshly attacked by Muwaylihi for this, but he certainly could have been influenced by operas played in Cairo, and even contrepoint, at some point. This is not contrepoint, but it is clearly an "organized" heterophonia. A step further than the usual. I don't think at all it was just a last minute idea, Shaykh salama sang adwar for 30 years before recording for Odeon, it is obvious a "path" was already settled. Maybe he had to train the madhhabgeyya Albert Levy got him (or was it before the Khawaga Albert's days? maybe...) and explain the idea to the takht, but they sure had it all prepared. Don't forget that there were always some time between each side for the sound engineer to change the wax record, while they could repeat, think, prepare and be ready for the next take.

What would I give for an interview with shaykh salama! Explaining qaddo l-mayyas would be first on the list of questions.

This is what is so awful when listening to interviews of great singers of Arabic music. I once bought this tape of a long interview with Umm Kulthum and it was all "what is your favorite color" or "what did u like most in Paris" sort of questions (although she did say "el mesalla", allah yeksefha). Totally useless material, while I would have asked thousands of technical questions. Who cares about their favorite colors... At the end, the journalist goes "ma3lesh, ta3abnaki", waiting for an "abadan, khaales", but Oum-Super Bitch-Kalsoum just goes "wa howa kazaalik". I laughed for an hour. But also cried : we'll never know anything about how those people worked and *did* their music.

أبو علاء
06-04-2006, 00:52
نحن قوم لم نفلح حتّى في حفظ ما ترك لنا أولئك العمالقة من تراث (اللّهمّ أن يكون الحفظ بمعنى إخفاء ما تيسّر منه من قطع في ظلمات الخزائن وبذل آلاف الدّولارات كي لا ينشر) ودُسنا جلّهم أحياء أو على الأقلّ تركناهم وشأنهم، ثمّ دفنّا ذكرهم بعد دفن أجسادهم، ولم ندوّن شيئا ذا بال عن فنّهم وحياتهم (عدا الطّرف والنّوادر والحكايا التّافهة)... فأنّى لنا أن نوفّق في سؤالهم عن فنّهم أو عن أيّ شيء ذي معنى عدا ألوانهم المفضّلة وأبراجهم وما أعجبهم في باريس ؟

Najib
06-04-2006, 01:02
I find it fantastic that we are all tuned to the same wavelength.

Abu 3ala this is exactly the interview I was telling you about a couple of weeks ago. Yes she talks about Mougi following in the footsteps of Qasabgi, and Makkawi following Zakaria which is obviously interesting, but alas, no elaboration there, and then they jump to "What's your favourite animal" aaaaarrrrghhh.

And just to rub salt in the wound the tape is called "Umm Kulthum Al Muqabalah al Akhirah".

أبو علاء
06-04-2006, 01:11
Thank god, I'm here served by innate skepticism. I simply never cared to listen to such interviews! About mawalid and allah hay, something is in the pipeline for you.

Faysal
09-04-2006, 01:02
Désolé mais mon anglais n'est pas très clair et écrire l'arabe avec une souris prend trop de temps. Vous ne m'en voudrez pas car j'ai vu que beaucoup lisaient le français ici. Ce site est vraiment très intéressant de par ce qu'on y écoute et surtout de par ceux qui le fréquentent. Bravo.
En ce qui concerne el adwar de Salama Higazi, voici trois extraits que j'ai trouvés dans un CD publié avec un livre portant sur son oeuvre.
ظريف الانس (http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5517#post5517)
فؤادي يا جميل (http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5097#post5097)
مجروح ياقلبي (يا غزالا Ya ghazalan
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)



فيصل

أبو علاء
09-04-2006, 10:37
شكرا جزيلا أخي الكريم ومرحبا بك بيننا ؛ ظريف الأنس ومجروح يا قلبي موجودان كاملان، أمّا الدّور الثّالث فلا أدري، لعلّ فريديريك يملكه وسيرفعه لنا بعد عودته من السّفر ؛ فكرة الكتاب والقرص فكرة جيّدة، وعلى ما أعلم لم يصدر من السّلسلة سوى كتاب سلامه حجازي الّذي ذكرته وآخر عن سيّد درويش ولكن كنت أتمنّى أن يضعوا القطع المختارة كاملة خصوصا أنّها ليست متوفّرة فيما عدا ذلك في السّوق.

Faysal
09-04-2006, 12:11
Il est vrai que des extraits d'aussi belles oeuvres coupées violemment ( comme le fait par exemple radio orient avec les chansons d'Um Kalthum pour passer des pubs stupides ) frustrent plus qu'ils ne font plaisir. Mais je pense que leur démarche était d'illustrer le livre. Le disque propose quand même des extraits de plusieurs aspects de son oeuvre : Adwar, "salamat", Qasa'id, Mushahat et musiques théâtrales. Une vingtaine d'extraits en tout. Effectivement, les titres qui ne sont pas disponibles devraient plus particulièrement être diffusés. Mais enfin même l'excellent disque sorti par Frédéric Lagrange en France n'est, je crois, plus disponible : ces merveilles ne semblent pas avoir une très grande valeur commerciale à notre grand dam.
J'ai donc appris à me contenter de peu : le livre en question que j'ai trouvé à l'institut du monde arabe et qui n'a visiblement été disponible là-bas que pendant quelques jours et en un nombre d'exemplaires très limité, a été publié en Egypte par un truc qui s'appelle دارالشروق et qui regroupe, après une très breve introduction racontant la vie et l'oeuvre de Salama Higazi, les textes de ses chansons, l'auteur et le mode dominant. J'ai trouvé ça très intéressant. Bien moins que la thèse de Frédéric Lagrange mise en ligne dernièrement qui est monumentale, mais quand même, même imparfaites de telles entreprises ( il existe aussi apparemment la même chose sur Sayd Darwish ) sont les bienvenues. Non ?
Faysal

Faysal
09-04-2006, 12:17
J'ajouterais quand même : heureusement qu'il existe aussi et surtout des gens comme vous qui fréquentent un site comme celui-ci qui m'a permis de découvrir des versions géniales et inédites des meilleures chansons d'Um Kalthum.

أبو علاء
09-04-2006, 12:22
أخي العزيز، أجبتك بالعربيّة معتبرا أنّك إن كنت لا تكتبها بيسر (على الحاسوب فقط حسبما فهمت) فإنّك لا تجد أدنى صعوبة في قراءتها، وآثرت عدم الرّدّ بالفرنسيّة لأنّ من سيفقهون هذا الحوار قليلون ؛ نحن متّفقان على أنّ فكرة هذه الكتب طيّبة (وكما ذكرت أعلاه فإنّي حصلت منها على عنوانين أحدهما عن سلامه حجازي والثّاني عن سيّد درويش)، كما أنّي مدرك أنّ القصد هو تقديم شواهد (أمثلة) عن الأعمال المذكورة في الكتاب ؛ إنّما قصدت فقط أنّ هذه الألحان غير متوفّرة في السّوق وحتّى ما توفّر قد يختفي كما ذكرت أنت، لذلك تمنّيت لتعمّ الفائدة أن تطبع الأعمال المذكورة كاملة ولو اقتضى الأمر أن يكون مع الكتاب قرصان بدل قرص واحد ؛ وإن كان الخوف من ارتفاع التّكلفة فإنّه كان بالإمكان تخيير المشتري بين شراء الكتاب والأقراص أو الأقراص وحدها دون الكتاب أو العكس بالعكس ؛ على أيّ حال سأرفع في الأيّام القادمة محتويات قرص نادي الاسطوانة العربيّة لسلامه حجازي مع مقالة لاغرانج معرّبة.

zeryab
09-04-2006, 18:50
هذه المقاطع التي تم إرفاقها في كتاب الشيخ سلامة حجازي

zeryab
09-04-2006, 18:56
بقية المقاطع المرفقة وموشح ياغزالا (http://www.zamanalwasl.net/forums/showthread.php?p=9863#post9863) موجود لدي كاملا وبه موال ولكن لا أعلم أين هو في مجموعتي وأيضا عندي تسجيل آخر لنفس الموشح ولكن بصوت زكي مراد وللأسف أنا ابحث عنه بين السيديات منذ أسبوع ولم أجده

أبو علاء
09-04-2006, 19:46
شكرا زرياب ؛ كما ذكرت آنفا سأعمل على تعريب مقالة فريديرك ونقل محتويات القرص الّذي أصدره في الأيّام القادمة.
أخي الكريم فيصل : تأكّد من أنّ سعادتنا تكون أعظم كلّما ازداد عدد الأعضاء والزّائرين وأبدوا الاهتمام بالمنتدى ومادّته ووجدوا في ذلك بعض ما يصادف هواهم.

AlfLeila
22-01-2012, 07:17
complete track of 'Füadi Ya Gameel'. the one posted is incomplete

fredlag@noos.fr
10-10-2016, 09:16
Better quality recording of Fu'ādī ya gamīl yehwāk