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الموضوع: علي محمود

  1. #21
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Sep 2005
    الإقامة
    Vienna, Austria
    المشاركات
    18

    إفتراضي

    أخيرا تمّ ضبط المواضيع وإعادة ترتيبها ولكن للأسف مع بعض الخسائر ؛ فقد ضاعت عدّة مشاركات للنّجيب وعمرو وعبدكم بسبب خاصّيّة تقنيّة لم أكن على علم بها، فقد نقلت المشاركات المعنيّة إلى أحد الموضوعين الجديدين اللّذين فتحتهما في قسم النّهضة باختيار وظيفة نسخ المشاركات إذ كان في نيّتي أن أبقي من التّعليقات ما يوافق سياق هذا الموضوع وأنقل إلى موضوع قصائد علي محمود ما يخصّه منها، غير أنّ حذف مشاركة ما في حال نقل نسخة منها إلى موضوع آخر يؤدّي إلى حذف النّسخة كما أنّ حذف النّسخة يعني حذف الأصل، وهو ما لم أدركه إلاّ بعد حصول المكروه، فمعذرة للجميع ؛ أمّا مشاركة صفاح خدّ وما تبعها من تعليقات من أبي حسن ورمزي ومنّي أنا فقد حذفتها لزيادتها على الحاجة.
    والحاصل هو نقل القصائد الثّلاث المغنّاة على التّخت أو يمصاحبة عازف واحد إلى موضوع حديد ضمن قسم النّهضة كما نقلت القصيدة الجديدة الّتي رفعها أحمد إلى نفس القسم ضمن موضوع مستقلّ، ويبقى الآن مراجعة فهارس القسمين وضبطها.
    آخر تعديل بواسطة أبو علاء ، 28-03-2009 الساعة 19:40
    أبو علاء

  2. #22
    Ed Emery Guest

    إفتراضي Sheikh Ali Mahmoud tawshih

    Dear Colleagues,

    I am working on a dissertation of the topic of zajal in performance, through the 1,000 year history of the genre.

    I lunched with Najib the other day and one thing led to another, and eventually led me to the Ali Mahmoud tawshih recordings posted here.

    Most useful.

    What would be spectacularly useful would be the following:

    1. Does anybody know the performance dates of these recordings?

    2. Can anyone provide references for printed source texts for these recordings (i.e., where available, names of authors, and appearance in printed songbooks)?

    3. Specifically, can anyone provide author name and text for the muwashshah "Ahlan bibadri-t-timmi ruhi-l-gamal".

    On a quite separate question, can anyone tell me whether a tradition of poetic duelling (zajal) such as exists in Palestine and Lebanon also exists in Egypt?

    ALSO, you may be interested to know that I am about to set up a series of seminars and musical performances entitled THE MAQAM PROJECT. These will be organised at and through the School of Oriental and African Studies [SOAS] in London, starting in late 2009.

    Anybody wishing to attend, or wanting further details, can write to me at ed.emery [@] soas.ac.uk

    With best regards,

    Ed Emery

  3. #23
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Sep 2005
    الإقامة
    Vienna, Austria
    المشاركات
    18

    إفتراضي

    إقتباس المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة Ed Emery مشاهدة مشاركة
    1. Does anybody know the performance dates of these recordings?
    Ed Emery
    I think Fred can answer this one.

    2. Can anyone provide references for printed source texts for these recordings (i.e., where available, names of authors, and appearance in printed songbooks)?
    It might be relatively easy to find some of the tawshih texts in muwashshah/qasid compilations (safinas). I personally remember seeing a couple of them (khalliyani and maybe billahi ya bahi-sh-shiyam). Try safinatu-l-mulk and Bulaqi and Zidan compilations to start with!

    3. Specifically, can anyone provide author name and text for the muwashshah "Ahlan bibadri-t-timmi ruhi-l-gamal".

    On a quite separate question, can anyone tell me whether a tradition of poetic duelling (zajal) such as exists in Palestine and Lebanon also exists in Egypt?
    These instead seem much more difficult to answer. I don't have any hint concerning possible answers to both questions. What I can do is to post an Arabic tranlation to reach as many members as possible with the hope that some Arabic speaker will have the answer
    أبو علاء

  4. #24
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Sep 2005
    الإقامة
    Vienna, Austria
    المشاركات
    18

    إفتراضي

    إيد إيمري صاحب المشاركة أعلاه باحث بصدد إعداد أطروحة عن الزّجل وهو صديق نجيب الّذي ألمح إليه ضمن موضوع "سؤال" (راجع منبر المنتدى) وهو يسأل هنا :
    1. هل من يرشده إلى تواريخ التّسحيلات المرفوعة ها هنا ؟
    2. هل بحوزة أيّ منّا مراجع مطبوعة بخصوص نصوص التّواشيح المرفوعة هنا وغيرها من تواشيح الشّيخ علي محمود مع ذكر أسماء الكتب الّتي وردت بها تلك النّصوص وأسماء النّاظمين إن توفّرت ؟
    3. هل من يدلّنا إلى نصّ توشيح أهلا ببدر التّمّ نور الجمال واسم صاحبه ؟
    4. هل وجد بمصر ما يشبه تقليد الزّجل بصيغته الّتي عرف بها في فلسطين ولبنان ؟
    أبو علاء

  5. #25
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Sep 2005
    الإقامة
    البلاد المنخفضة.....Netherlands
    المشاركات
    8

    إفتراضي

    إقتباس المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة Ed Emery مشاهدة مشاركة
    On a quite separate question, can anyone tell me whether a tradition of poetic duelling (zajal) such as exists in Palestine and Lebanon also exists in Egypt?
    zajal as a poetic form yes by that particular duelling not that i heard of , AmrB and Fred probably can confirm
    آخر تعديل بواسطة Hattouma ، 24-07-2009 الساعة 11:23

  6. #26
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Jan 2008
    الإقامة
    Netherlands
    المشاركات
    0

    إفتراضي

    إقتباس المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة Hattouma مشاهدة مشاركة
    zajal as a form yes by that particular duelling not that i heard of , AmrB and Fred probably can confirm
    I haven't heard of any tradition of poetic duelling in Egypt, even in upper Egypt where the Arab traditions are well-founded. Anyway, if any such tradition existed, it probably disappeared a long time ago.

  7. #27
    Ed Emery Guest

    إفتراضي Zajal... Bouriant

    Dear Colleagues,

    I thank you for having given consideration to my question "does poetic duelling exist in Egypt". I shall continue my search. In Lebanon and Palestine it occurs in the context of weddings - I wonder whether that might also be true of Egypt, where I imagine that improvisational praise-singing is a feature of wedding celebrations.

    Anyway, I thought I would share with you a small area of speculation, which attempts to couple some of the tawshish material contained in the Zaman al-Wasl forum together with an interesting 19th-century songbook published in Cairo.

    The notes contained below are purely speculative, and are not for further publication or circulation.

    With best regards,

    Ed Emery

    ++++++++++++

    BOURIANT

    Moving forward to the nineteenth century, the presence of zajal is further attested in the songbook prepared by the Egyptologist.Urbain Bouriant, director of the French Archaeological Museum of Cairo (located in the appropriately named Rue Bonaparte), and published in 1893. The book, “based on the manuscripts of a street singer”, presents a collection of 33 songs, which it specifies are in “Cairo dialect” and further specifies, in the headings, that most of them are zajals. They include praise songs, comic songs and love songs.

    Many of the songs have a rhyme scheme which can be characterised as AABBBA in the classic Andalusi manner. They begin with a two-line introduction, rhyming at the end. There follow a set of strophes (dawr) of unspecific number, generally more than ten. Each strophe has either four or five lines. In some cases of four lines, there is an additional line which repeats the second line of the matla’, presumably as refrain. The strophes are structure as two hemistichs, but without rhyme at the caesura. Other zajal songs in the collection are differently structured, with internal rhyming at the caesura.

    Given that this was the repertoire of a Cairo street singer in the early 1890s, the question arises as to whether we can know anything about how it sounded and how it was structured musically. Unlike the song collection of another French Orientalist, Louis-Albert Bourgault-Ducoudray, Bouriant provides no musical notation. However Bouriant’s publication was contemporaneous with the birth of the recording industry and the appearance of the first phonograms in Cairo (1894). Local recording in Egypt began in 1904. The Gramophone company was active from 1903 and by 1912 had issued over 1,100 Egyptian recordings, servicing a hungry local market. Odeon and Baidaphone were equally active in the same period. In Europe and America record companies were featuring humorous and colloquial material in large quantities, alongside classical music and music of military bands. It appears that the early Arabic-catalogue materials of Odeon, Beka etc have not yet been published; however an anlysis of the substantial recorded output of the “court artist” Sheikh Yusuf al-Manyalawi (c.1843/53-1911) consists principally of dors, plus a large section of qasidas and a scattering of muwashshahs and mawwals; the catalogue of his more libertine contemporary ‘Abd al-Hayy Hilmi (1857-1912) contains a similar mix, but with the addition of layalis and taqtuqas. There is nothing to indicate the presence of the kind of material featured in Bouriant’s publication (humorous zajals etc). For the moment nothing can be concluded definitively about the musical treatment of Bouriant’s zajal songs. However muwashshah material did find its way into the catalogues, and some of those recordings are now available. Since the muwashshah and zajal share common textual structural features, it is possible that the performances by Bouriant’s “street singer” may have had elements in common with the tawshih recordings made by the likes of Manyalawi and Hilmi, but it is equally possible that the stylistic content of those recordings was a hybrid mediated content determined by the preferences of the recording companies and sound engineers, Ottoman instrumental practice, time-constrained curtailment and the local taste for European opera. For instance the 6-minute al-Hilmi muwashshah recording filed in the Zaman al-Wasl forum includes the obligatory layali at the start, and then goes on to feature duet-style “echo” singing reminiscent of European opera.

    A closer match might be the wholly vocal (non-instrumental) tawshih performance by Sheikh ‘Ali Mahmud of “Ahlan bibadri-t-timmi” also filed in the Zaman al-Wasl forum.

    Ends

    +++++++++++++++


    [Incidentally, if anybody wants a copy of the Bourgault-Ducoudray songbook, please contact me by private message.]

  8. #28
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Mar 2006
    الإقامة
    California
    المشاركات
    7

    إفتراضي

    I would expect popular zajal singing to be extremely different in both musical structure and style to religious or secular muwashahs.

    Secular muwashahs generally have very complicated rythmic patterns, and Religious tawasheeh have very complicated melodic improvisation. Both of these characteristics would not be expected in a popular art form such as zajal. In all probability, even rythm itself would've been absent, with a mawwal like singing style as common in near eastern ataba or mijana and so on.

    I think Frederic can help alot here. He's a published musicologist, I'm a chemist...

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